In the season finale, Megan and Michael sit down with First Nations Christian leader Uncle Pastor Ray Minniecon to discuss the upcoming referendum in Australia concerning The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice (also known as the Indigenous Voice to Parliament, or simply 'The Voice).Our hosts also sift through the responses from various groups to The Voice, casting a spotlight on who has - and hasn't - voiced support.Finally, on 'Through The Wardrobe', Michael and Megan keep things political with a look back at the 2017 ABC documentary Counted, hosted by Stan Grant to commemorate the 1967 Referendum which saw Australian First Nations people counted as part of the Australian population. They compare this with an episode of Derry Girls, unpacking the complexities of referendum and nationhood.And, as promised, here is a link to the Christian denominational responses to the Voice to Parliament that the WADR team collected.

In the season finale, Megan and Michael sit down with First Nations Christian leader Uncle Pastor Ray Minniecon to discuss the upcoming referendum in Australia concerning The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice (also known as the Indigenous Voice to Parliament, or simply 'The Voice).Our hosts also sift through the responses from various groups to The Voice, casting a spotlight on who has - and hasn't - voiced support.Finally, on 'Through The Wardrobe', Michael and Megan keep things political with a look back at the 2017 ABC documentary Counted, hosted by Stan Grant to commemorate the 1967 Referendum which saw Australian First Nations people counted as part of the Australian population. They compare this with an episode of Derry Girls, unpacking the complexities of referendum and nationhood.And, as promised, here is <a href="https://thewadrproject.com/the-voice-to-parliament-christian-responses/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">a link to the Christian denominational responses to the Voice to Parliament</a> that the WADR team collected.

The Voice

This week on WADR, our hosts are living up to the aim of the show (conversations with respect and grace) with an Easter special on ... GRACE!Grace is of course a concept strongly associated with the cross of Christ. It is a word Christians chuck around - but do we have a good understanding of what it means? And can grace even be immoral?'The Secret Life of Us' then makes a return, with Michael and Megan sharing episodes in their life when they had grace shown to them.Finally, on 'Through The Wardrobe' our hosts give their take on The Engish, a grizzly western reboot about an aristocrat bent on revenge in the new world. Can grace be shown to those who've taken everything from us?WADR is hosted by Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen. It is part of the Undeceptions podcast network.

This week on WADR, our hosts are living up to the aim of the show (conversations with respect and grace) with an Easter special on ... GRACE! Grace is of course a concept strongly associated with the cross of Christ. It is a word Christians chuck around - but do we have a good understanding of what it means? And can grace even be immoral?'The Secret Life of Us' then makes a return, with Michael and Megan sharing episodes in their life when they had grace shown to them.Finally, on 'Through The Wardrobe' our hosts give their take on The Engish, a grizzly western reboot about an aristocrat bent on revenge in the new world. Can grace be shown to those who've taken everything from us?WADR is hosted by Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen. It is part of the Undeceptions podcast network.

Easter Special: Radical Grace

This week, Megan and Michael delve into the mystery of 'time', and ask the question ... is time cursed? And how are eternity and time-related?On 'Through the Wardrobe', the pair cast their critical eye over the now cancelled Amazon series Paper Girls, a time travelling adventure drama that looks at how we might feel if we met our future selves. Plus, our hosts take some time to answer audience questions. Does pineapple belong on pizza? Do Michael and Megan actually disagree on anything? And what should we do with the work of now-disgraced theologians? Tune in to find out!WADR is hosted by Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen. It is part of the Undeceptions podcast network.

This week, Megan and Michael delve into the mystery of 'time', and ask the question ... is time cursed? And how are eternity and time-related?On 'Through the Wardrobe', the pair cast their critical eye over the now cancelled Amazon series Paper Girls, a time travelling adventure drama that looks at how we might feel if we met our future selves. Plus, our hosts take some time to answer audience questions. Does pineapple belong on pizza? Do Michael and Megan actually disagree on anything? And what should we do with the work of now-disgraced theologians? Tune in to find out!WADR is hosted by Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen. It is part of the Undeceptions podcast network.

The Adventure of Time

On a special edition of 'For Argument's Sake', Michael and Megan dissect the fallout from The Gospel Coalitions' recent endorsement - and swift recant -  of a controversial extract from Joshua Butler's new book Beautiful Union, which drew parallels between the saving work of Christ, and sexual intercourse between husband and wife. Our hosts then explore why the article was published, the dangers of applying such theology within marriage, and what structural and cultural shortcomings the saga has exposed within TGC.Numerous theologians and academics who lent their names to the book - and by extension the article -  have since withdrawn their endorsements, with some writing follow-up articles in the wake of the scandal.Joshua Butler has since resigned as a Gospel Coalition Centre fellow, and will not be involved with planned TGC events for 2023.Extra reading on the issue can be found below. LINKS:* TGC statement on the article* Check out Bethany Falker-Jones unpacking of the whole affair - 'Protestant Bodies, Protestant Bedrooms, and our furious need for a theology thereof'* Mikey Lynch, director of the Australian arm of TGC, has published a fascinating pushback on the original article - 'Don't Go Beyond What Is Written'

On a special edition of 'For Argument's Sake', Michael and Megan dissect the fallout from The Gospel Coalitions' recent endorsement - and swift recant -  of a controversial extract from Joshua Butler's new book Beautiful Union, which drew parallels between the saving work of Christ, and sexual intercourse between husband and wife. Our hosts then explore why the article was published, the dangers of applying such theology within marriage, and what structural and cultural shortcomings the saga has exposed within TGC.Numerous theologians and academics who lent their names to the book - and by extension the article -  have since withdrawn their endorsements, with some writing follow-up articles in the wake of the scandal.Joshua Butler has since resigned as a Gospel Coalition Centre fellow, and will not be involved with planned TGC events for 2023.Extra reading on the issue can be found below. LINKS: * <a href="https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/sex-wont-save-you/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">TGC statement on the article</a> * Check out Bethany Falker-Jones unpacking of the whole affair - <a href="https://bethfelkerjones.substack.com/p/protestant-bodies-protestant-bedrooms" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Protestant Bodies, Protestant Bedrooms, and our furious need for a theology thereof'</a> * Mikey Lynch, director of the Australian arm of TGC, has published a fascinating pushback on the original article - '<a href="https://au.thegospelcoalition.org/article/dont-go-beyond-what-is-written/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Don't Go Beyond What Is Written</a>'

Sexual Gospel

It's family week on WADR. Michael and Megan chat through different perspectives on family, and in particular, adoption. They work through the good and the bad, how it can heal - but also compound - trauma, and what the Bible has to say about it.   UK-based broadcaster, author, social entrepreneur, and adoptive father Dr Krish Kandiah then joins the podcast for a challenging discussion on fostering and adoption.Finally, on 'Through The Wardrobe', our hosts share their thoughts on the 2021 documentary Found, the moving story of three Chinese girls, adopted by American parents, who discover they are blood-related, and then return to their country of birth to uncover their origins.WADR is hosted by Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen. It is part of the Undeceptions podcast network.

It's family week on WADR. Michael and Megan chat through different perspectives on family, and in particular, adoption. They work through the good and the bad, how it can heal - but also compound - trauma, and what the Bible has to say about it.   UK-based broadcaster, author, social entrepreneur, and adoptive father Dr Krish Kandiah then joins the podcast for a challenging discussion on fostering and adoption.Finally, on 'Through The Wardrobe', our hosts share their thoughts on the 2021 documentary Found, the moving story of three Chinese girls, adopted by American parents, who discover they are blood-related, and then return to their country of birth to uncover their origins.WADR is hosted by Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen. It is part of the Undeceptions podcast network.

Finding Family

This week, Megan and Michael deep dive into the often heated relationship between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism, examining what the recent death of former Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI means for intra-church relations, and how Protestants and Roman Catholics can walk hand-in-hand in ministry (can they?). Catholic theologian Dr Elissa Roper joins the podcast to discuss a range of issues, including what the late Pope’s passing means, and what decade might hold for the Catholic Church.Then, on ‘Through The Wardrobe’, Megan and Michael talk about Roland Joffe’s 1986 cinematic masterpiece The Mission - a classic of the genre that Megan, unbelievably, hadn’t seen before!WADR is hosted by Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen. It is part of the Undeceptions podcast network. 

This week, Megan and Michael deep dive into the often heated relationship between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism, examining what the recent death of former Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI means for intra-church relations, and how Protestants and Roman Catholics can walk hand-in-hand in ministry (can they?).  Catholic theologian Dr Elissa Roper joins the podcast to discuss a range of issues, including what the late Pope’s passing means, and what decade might hold for the Catholic Church. Then, on ‘Through The Wardrobe’, Megan and Michael talk about Roland Joffe’s 1986 cinematic masterpiece The Mission - a classic of the genre that Megan, unbelievably, hadn’t seen before! WADR is hosted by Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen. It is part of the Undeceptions podcast network.

Connecting with Catholics

Megan and Michael talk about all things freedom - does true freedom exist, and are we really free in the 21st century? From overthrowing the yoke of human slavery (Israel's Exodus from Egypt) to Jesus' promise that “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”, the concept of freedom is at the heart of the Biblical story.But what does it mean for our everyday lives to be free? Are we truly free if we still feel the weight of sin in our lives? Can we ever, truly have free will?On 'Through the wardrobe', Michael and Megan discuss last year's medieval comedy Catherine Called Birdy, and how this tale of a young Englishwoman navigating 13th-century society relates to the idea of being truly 'free'.Plus, in a brand new segment called 'You can't ask that' Michael confronts Megan on one of the most divisive issues in church history; what it means to be Arminian - and can you really call yourself a Christian and Arminian at the same time?WADR is hosted by Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen. It is part of the Undeceptions podcast network. 

Megan and Michael talk about all things freedom - does true freedom exist, and are we really free in the 21st century? From overthrowing the yoke of human slavery (Israel's Exodus from Egypt) to Jesus' promise that “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”, the concept of freedom is at the heart of the Biblical story.But what does it mean for our everyday lives to be free? Are we truly free if we still feel the weight of sin in our lives? Can we ever, truly have free will?On 'Through the wardrobe', Michael and Megan discuss last year's medieval comedy Catherine Called Birdy, and how this tale of a young Englishwoman navigating 13th-century society relates to the idea of being truly 'free'.Plus, in a brand new segment called 'You can't ask that' Michael confronts Megan on one of the most divisive issues in church history; what it means to be Arminian - and can you really call yourself a Christian and Arminian at the same time?WADR is hosted by Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen. It is part of the Undeceptions podcast network.

We Are Free

Hospitality is a word that conjures up images of wine glasses and silver cutlery. It's the word for the hotel trade or the type of entertaining that looks good on Instagram: themed dinner parties and pretty hand soaps for the guest toilet. Yet hospitality is also a word that occurs in the Bible. Famously, Hebrews 13:2 urges, "Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it." But exactly what are we being called to do? Is it an occasional drinks with the next-door neighbours or something more? Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen talk about who exactly are our neighbours when it comes to hospitality and what it might require of us. To help the WADR team out, Michael and Megan also talk to Jon Owen who has lived a remarkably hospitable life. And then they sing along with Come From Away, the musical about 7,000 unexpected guests.

Hospitality is a word that conjures up images of wine glasses and silver cutlery. It's the word for the hotel trade or the type of entertaining that looks good on Instagram: themed dinner parties and pretty hand soaps for the guest toilet. Yet hospitality is also a word that occurs in the Bible. Famously, Hebrews 13:2 urges, "Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it." But exactly what are we being called to do? Is it an occasional drinks with the next-door neighbours or something more? Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen talk about who exactly are our neighbours when it comes to hospitality and what it might require of us. To help the WADR team out, Michael and Megan also talk to Jon Owen who has lived a remarkably hospitable life. And then they sing along with Come From Away, the musical about 7,000 unexpected guests.

The hospitable heart

All of us as humans are embodied. We come into being through our bodies being formed in the womb, and when our bodies die, our lives in this world end. Christians have held different attitudes to the body over history - while the body has a central place in the Christian understanding of the life to come, at times the body has been seen as the source of sin. Megan Powell due Toit and Michael Jensen talk about a significant Christian concept - the flesh - and what it means for how we relate to ourselves and others as embodied people. The WADR team then talk to the author Sam Allberry about his work on the body, and finish with a recent film that grapples with the Christian relationship with the body, The Wonder.

All of us as humans are embodied. We come into being through our bodies being formed in the womb, and when our bodies die, our lives in this world end. Christians have held different attitudes to the body over history - while the body has a central place in the Christian understanding of the life to come, at times the body has been seen as the source of sin. Megan Powell due Toit and Michael Jensen talk about a significant Christian concept - the flesh - and what it means for how we relate to ourselves and others as embodied people. The WADR team then talk to the author Sam Allberry about his work on the body, and finish with a recent film that grapples with the Christian relationship with the body, The Wonder.

Embodied humans

In this episode, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen talk about the Dark Night of the Soul. It's a common phrase - one which describes someone going through a difficult time, particularly one in which God feels either absent or unloving. The WADR team investigates where it comes from, and then asks if it's as bad as it sounds?Then Megan and Michael talk to Dr Greg Clarke about two songwriters who have been known to include their honest struggle with faith in their songs - Nick Cave and Bono. And we finish by getting up close and personal with that most faithful and yet honest of poets, John Donne.

In this episode, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen talk about the Dark Night of the Soul. It's a common phrase - one which describes someone going through a difficult time, particularly one in which God feels either absent or unloving. The WADR team investigates where it comes from, and then asks if it's as bad as it sounds?Then Megan and Michael talk to Dr Greg Clarke about two songwriters who have been known to include their honest struggle with faith in their songs - Nick Cave and Bono. And we finish by getting up close and personal with that most faithful and yet honest of poets, John Donne.

Dark night of the soul

Less aggro, more conversation. Is it even possible to have a deep discussion without it descending into chaos? Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit think yes, and want to show the rest of us how to do it. There’s plenty of things they disagree on: free will, feminism, where you should send your kids to school and what type of church you should go to. But there are also plenty of other things that they have in common. They want to talk about all these things with conviction. But they also want the conversation to be constructive. Tune in to find out if that’s possible.

Two Irenic personalities from two  different evangelical Christian perspectives in Australia.  This kind of dialogue is much needed and a modelFor Christian engagement.

Great Australian Christian Podcast

Less aggro, more conversation. Is it even possible to have a deep discussion without it descending into chaos? Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit think yes, and want to show the rest of us how to do it. There’s plenty of things they disagree on: free will, feminism, where you should send your kids to school and what type of church you should go to. But there are also plenty of other things that they have in common. They want to talk about all these things with conviction. But they also want the conversation to be constructive. Tune in to find out if that’s possible.

With All Due Respect

Welcome back! Season two of With All Due Respect starts with a bang ...For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out It's game on as Megan and Michael address the elephant in the room: the issue of gender in the church.This topic marks one of the deepest divides among evangelical Christians, and the church in general. It's also one of the biggest disagreements between Megan and Michael personally (and the discussion that Michael's been avoiding because of the painful responses it can provoke).So what should women do in the church and why does it matter anyway?It's time for Megan and Michael to tie their colours to the mast: exactly what do they think about the "c word" (complementarianism) and the "e word" (egalitarianism), what's the biblical basis for these positions and how do they play out in the life of Christians and the church today.While on opposite sides of the debate, both Megan and Michael agree that this is not just a "women's issue".Further reading: Michael has written on feminism for Eternity – Perhaps feminism is not the enemy  Megan has written on sex and power in the church for Eternity – Christians need to reform their ideas about sex and power  Also mentioned in this segment:  Created Or Constructed? Great Gender Debate by Elaine Storkey Michael gives a shout-out to Matt Anslow, a member of the With All Due Respect Facebook group, who asked the following question (abbreviated): “My assumption is that God, being wholly good, gives us commands that are for our good ... Complementarians, at least as far as I’m aware, are unable to point to any objective good secured by prohibiting women from exercising these certain ministry roles. Usually the reason given for upholding these teachings is simply that God has commanded it in Scripture, and exegetical arguments ensue.Keeping in mind that such commands are seen by many Christians as only being intended for and applicable to their original contexts, what objective goods do complementarians think are being secured by upholding their teaching on ministry roles?” Q&amp;A: you ask us questions, and we answer without the spinYou can’t ask that! Oh but you did, and Megan and Michael asked you to. The pair field a handful of some 600 questions about gender identity and the church thrown at them by members of With All Due Respect Facebook group – a community of Christians committed to respectful public conversation.Megan goes into bat for the "feminist egalitarian" team and Michael the "moderate complementarian" team.Here's just a taste of some of the curly questions they address: Isn't egalitarianism just about women seeking power? Does complementarianism always lead to abuse?Mentioned in this segment:Both Megan and Michael have chapters in the book The Gender Conversation: Evangelical Perspectives on Gender, Scripture and the Christian Life.Megan’s chapter is about gender construction, culture and Scripture, calling for both men and women to image Christ.Michael's chapter is about responding to domestic and family violence by understanding the new call to mutuality and transformed masculinity.The secret life of us: what makes the other one tickTime to get personal.Michael asks Megan, "Am I a misogynist?"Megan asks Michael, "Do you think I'm called by God?"After this epic first ep for season two, our co-hosts may not have solved the issues around gender roles in the church but hopefully we've reached a starting point for mutual respect, understanding and further conversation. 

Welcome back! Season two of With All Due Respect starts with a bang ... For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out  It's game on as Megan and Michael address the elephant in the room: the issue of gender in the church.This topic marks one of the deepest divides among evangelical Christians, and the church in general. It's also one of the biggest disagreements between Megan and Michael personally (and the discussion that Michael's been avoiding because of the painful responses it can provoke).So what should women do in the church and why does it matter anyway?It's time for Megan and Michael to tie their colours to the mast: exactly what do they think about the "c word" (complementarianism) and the "e word" (egalitarianism), what's the biblical basis for these positions and how do they play out in the life of Christians and the church today.While on opposite sides of the debate, both Megan and Michael agree that this is not just a "women's issue".Further reading:<ul> <li>Michael has written on feminism for Eternity – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/perhaps-feminism-is-not-the-enemy/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Perhaps feminism is not the enemy</a> </li> <li>Megan has written on sex and power in the church for Eternity – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/christians-need-to-reform-their-ideas-about-sex-and-power/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Christians need to reform their ideas about sex and power</a> </li> </ul>Also mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li> <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/created-or-constructed-great-gender-debate-elaine-storkey/0868406422.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Created Or Constructed? Great Gender Debate </a>by Elaine Storkey</li> <li>Michael gives a shout-out to Matt Anslow, a member of the With All Due Respect Facebook group, who asked the following question (abbreviated): “My assumption is that God, being wholly good, gives us commands that are for our good ... Complementarians, at least as far as I’m aware, are unable to point to any objective good secured by prohibiting women from exercising these certain ministry roles. Usually the reason given for upholding these teachings is simply that God has commanded it in Scripture, and exegetical arguments ensue. Keeping in mind that such commands are seen by many Christians as only being intended for and applicable to their original contexts, what objective goods do complementarians think are being secured by upholding their teaching on ministry roles?”</li> </ul> Q&amp;A: you ask us questions, and we answer without the spin You can’t ask that! Oh but you did, and Megan and Michael asked you to. The pair field a handful of some 600 questions about gender identity and the church thrown at them by members of With All Due Respect Facebook group – a community of Christians committed to respectful public conversation.Megan goes into bat for the "feminist egalitarian" team and Michael the "moderate complementarian" team.Here's just a taste of some of the curly questions they address: Isn't egalitarianism just about women seeking power? Does complementarianism always lead to abuse?Mentioned in this segment:<ul><li>Both Megan and Michael have chapters in the book <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/the-gender-conversation-evangelical-perspectives-on-gender-/9781498298957.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Gender Conversation: Evangelical Perspectives on Gender, Scripture and the Christian Life</a>. Megan’s chapter is about gender construction, culture and Scripture, calling for both men and women to image Christ. Michael's chapter is about responding to domestic and family violence by understanding the new call to mutuality and transformed masculinity.</li></ul> The secret life of us: what makes the other one tick Time to get personal.Michael asks Megan, "Am I a misogynist?"Megan asks Michael, "Do you think I'm called by God?"After this epic first ep for season two, our co-hosts may not have solved the issues around gender roles in the church but hopefully we've reached a starting point for mutual respect, understanding and further conversation.

Women, ministry and the church

Happy Valentine's Day, listeners! "Give your loved one a book this Valentine's Day," suggests Michael Jensen in this episode dedicated to the love of books: The Good Book, other books and a book on good reading.For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it outHow should we read the Bible today?  Megan and Michael ponder how the Bible is different to any other book. What in the world does a "plain reading of the text" mean when we're talking about the Bible? What part does church play in how we read it? Can you be a better Bible reader than someone else? And what about the Holy Spirit's role in showing us the truth? (Pssst ... heads up ... they also touch on the role of women in the church and the varying biblical interpretations. Deep breath.)Mentioned in this segment:Graeme Goldsworthy's Gospel and KingdomThe Suffering Servant, Isaiah 53QandA: you ask us questions, and we answer without the spin.  Megan and Michael try and answer a listener question from Rachel: “Should children be allowed to read fiction that is non-Christian in some way, specifically thinking about things like ‘Harry Potter’? And if not, why is it different to other fantasies like ‘Narnia Chronicles’ or ‘The Lord of the Ring’ trilogy?Both agree that stories of all kinds can be enriching and helpful to our understanding of the gospel. The duo also outline how they attempted to direct their own respective children towards some stories over others. And, sigh of relief, they both declare Harry Potter as having some pretty big implicit Christian themes. Tune in to find out more, particularly about the Sorting Hat and to hear their discussion on  whether Harry Potter is a celebration of witchcraft and the occult (and whether that should be problematic for Christians). Mentioned in this segment: ·       C.S. Lewis, Narnia·       Tolkien, Lord of the Rings·       J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter series·       Phillip Pullmann, His Dark Materials seriesMarg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same onesThis episode, Megan and Michael review Karen Swallow Prior's On Reading Well: Finding a good life through great books and discuss the politicisation of books, what that means for how we read and why it matters for how we talk to each other. Mentioned in this segment: ·       Karen Swallow Prior, On reading well·       Aristotle, Nichomachean Ethics·       Background on Prior

Happy Valentine's Day, listeners! "Give your loved one a book this Valentine's Day," suggests Michael Jensen in this episode dedicated to the love of books: The Good Book, other books and a book on good reading.For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out How should we read the Bible today?  Megan and Michael ponder how the Bible is different to any other book. What in the world does a "plain reading of the text" mean when we're talking about the Bible? What part does church play in how we read it? Can you be a better Bible reader than someone else? And what about the Holy Spirit's role in showing us the truth? (Pssst ... heads up ... they also touch on the role of women in the church and the varying biblical interpretations. Deep breath.)Mentioned in this segment:<a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/the-gospel-and-kingdom-biblical-classics-library-series/9781842277911.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Graeme Goldsworthy's Gospel and Kingdom </a> <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+53&amp;version=NASB" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Suffering Servant, Isaiah 53 </a> QandA: you ask us questions, and we answer without the spin.   Megan and Michael try and answer a listener question from Rachel: “Should children be allowed to read fiction that is non-Christian in some way, specifically thinking about things like ‘Harry Potter’? And if not, why is it different to other fantasies like ‘Narnia Chronicles’ or ‘The Lord of the Ring’ trilogy?Both agree that stories of all kinds can be enriching and helpful to our understanding of the gospel. The duo also outline how they attempted to direct their own respective children towards some stories over others. And, sigh of relief, they both declare Harry Potter as having some pretty big implicit Christian themes. Tune in to find out more, particularly about the Sorting Hat and to hear their discussion on  whether Harry Potter is a celebration of witchcraft and the occult (and whether that should be problematic for Christians). Mentioned in this segment: ·       <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/the-chronicles-of-narnia-adult-readers-edition-chronicles/9780007117307.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">C.S. Lewis, Narnia </a> ·       <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/the-lord-of-the-rings-complete-j-r/9780007322596.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Tolkien, Lord of the Rings </a> ·       <a href="https://www.angusrobertson.com.au/books/harry-potter-box-set-the-complete-collection-jk-rowling/p/9781408856772?gclid=Cj0KCQiA7briBRD7ARIsABhX8aBYFUDXn9BT414XogF_ilabhykAAmLNm29yt1PkZqOMwiasMU2yAwwaAmFUEALw_wcB" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter series </a> ·       <a href="https://www.angusrobertson.com.au/books/his-dark-materials-philip-pullman/p/9780375842382?gclid=Cj0KCQiA7briBRD7ARIsABhX8aAfDzqJzJlmHNgSwCp-3yh4qq7MpH6pymNYdMM10Fz2P3z1NYJ8ubUaAl9-EALw_wcB" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Phillip Pullmann, His Dark Materials series </a> Marg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same ones This episode, Megan and Michael review Karen Swallow Prior's On Reading Well: Finding a good life through great books and discuss the politicisation of books, what that means for how we read and why it matters for how we talk to each other. Mentioned in this segment: ·       <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/on-reading-well-karen-prior/9781493415465.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Karen Swallow Prior, On reading well </a> ·       <a href="https://www.bookdepository.com/The-Nicomachean-Ethics-Aristotle/9780140449495?redirected=true&amp;utm_medium=Google&amp;utm_campaign=Base1&amp;utm_source=AU&amp;utm_content=The-Nicomachean-Ethics&amp;selectCurrency=AUD&amp;w=AF45AU99Z397TJA803SR&amp;pdg=aud-298410631822:pla-104399158419:kwd-104399158419:cmp-680104063:adg-37898644947:crv-151944074570:pid-9780140449495:dev-c&amp;gclid=Cj0KCQiA7briBRD7ARIsABhX8aB43DxS8XiMHV1PMYBBbrsdloySlxpoEjTfs12KcPTv-njO965u-uUaAvkYEALw_wcB" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Aristotle, Nichomachean Ethics </a> ·       <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-religion/conservative-evangelicals-attempt-to-disentangle-their-faith-from-trumpism" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Background on Prior </a>

On how to read the Bible, Harry Potter and, well, all the books really 

In For Argument's Sake, Michael and Megan talk about the "real blow up" that is the religious freedom debate circling around whether Christian schools should be able to discriminate in the hiring of staff and selection of students. Triggered by a bill from the Greens, there has been heated debate about a letter from 34 Anglican schools in Sydney, organised by the Anglican Archbishop Glenn Davies which supported the schools' right to uphold the Christian ethos of their school in their choice of teachers. Read more about the backlash, which included protests and apologies, here. Also, here is the letter from Anglican Principals, a letter in response from school alumni and the apology from the Archbishop. Phew. What a mess (and check out this Media Watch about the whole saga as it was reported in the media)  "It really went feral, didn't it?" Michael says.In the discussion, Michael and Megan try to get to the bottom of what it is that Christians are actually arguing for in this latest iteration of the religious freedom debate? And ... is it a fair thing to be seeking to protect?Then, Michael and Megan get into The Secret Life of Us, a new segment in which they try to figure out what makes the other tick. The topic? How their school experiences have shaped their worldview.Just FYI: Michael went to North Newtown Public then Trinity Grammar (an Anglican boys school). Megan went to Loftus Public, Ferncourt Public, Campbelltown North Public, Kent Rd Public and Peter Board High. So, let the arguments begin about private vs public schooling.Moving on to Marg and Dave, Megan chose the much-hyped Boy Swallows Universe by Trent Dalton and called it "one of the great Australian novels". While the novel takes a good look at the "underbelly of Brisbane society", Megan said she found it "quite a joyful novel". Does Michael agree? Listen in to find out.The book, says Megan, asks questions like, What is it to be a good person? How can I redeem myself? What motivates someone to be good? Listen to Trent Dalton talk about the book's connection to his life on ABC's Conversations podcast.

In For Argument's Sake, Michael and Megan talk about the "real blow up" that is the religious freedom debate circling around whether Christian schools should be able to discriminate in the hiring of staff and selection of students. Triggered by a <a href="https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=s1147" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bill from the Greens</a>, there has been heated debate about a letter from 34 Anglican schools in Sydney, organised by the Anglican Archbishop Glenn Davies which supported the schools' right to uphold the Christian ethos of their school in their choice of teachers. Read more about the backlash, which included protests and apologies, here. Also, here is the <a href="https://sydneyanglicans.net/news/anglican-educators-write-open-letter-to-mps" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">letter from Anglican Principals</a>, a <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSea7XYTBXJ0Z0R7gUHBh4taYUPWmOl_H2QGHcrUsKiJbMsv8A/viewform?fbclid=IwAR2ATP02E34pcMOd2fOBjZXHFzT1Bj1fK19G1ivqllJlRazFH89ks6CbbGY" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">letter in response from school alumni</a> and the <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-09/anglican-archbishop-apologises-but-refuses-to-back-down/10476146" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">apology from the Archbishop</a>. Phew. What a mess (and check out this <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episodes/religious-freedom-furphy/10377314" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Media Watch</a> about the whole saga as it was reported in the media)  "It really went feral, didn't it?" Michael says.In the discussion, Michael and Megan try to get to the bottom of what it is that Christians are actually arguing for in this latest iteration of the religious freedom debate? And ... is it a fair thing to be seeking to protect?Then, Michael and Megan get into The Secret Life of Us, a new segment in which they try to figure out what makes the other tick. The topic? How their school experiences have shaped their worldview.Just FYI: Michael went to North Newtown Public then Trinity Grammar (an Anglican boys school). Megan went to Loftus Public, Ferncourt Public, Campbelltown North Public, Kent Rd Public and Peter Board High. So, let the arguments begin about private vs public schooling.Moving on to Marg and Dave, Megan chose the much-hyped <a href="https://www.amazon.com.au/Boy-Swallows-Universe-Trent-Dalton-ebook/dp/B078QRFRZX" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Boy Swallows Universe</a> by Trent Dalton and called it "one of the great Australian novels". While the novel takes a good look at the "underbelly of Brisbane society", Megan said she found it "quite a joyful novel". Does Michael agree? Listen in to find out.The book, says Megan, asks questions like, What is it to be a good person? How can I redeem myself? What motivates someone to be good? Listen to Trent Dalton talk about the book's connection to his life on ABC's <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/trent-dalton/9874840" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Conversations podcast. </a>

Ep 5: Public vs private schools, religious freedom and *that* letter on gay teachers

Notes on episode 16Are we a persecuted people?For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it outDo Christians have a persecution complex? And are we being persecuted here in Australia?Discussion around persecution has heated up since the Christchurch shootings where 50 Muslims were killed by a gunman who entered two mosques in March.The conversation has ramped even further since Rugby player Israel Folau posted a message on Instagram with a list of people - including homosexuals - who would be going to hell if they didn't repent, and has been found in high-level breach of the Rugby Australia code of conduct, which means he could lose his job (and $4 million contract). Megan and Michael delve into the complexity of persecution, looking at the news reporting of Christian and Muslim persecution in different parts of the world and asking questions about whether there's more to persecution than just other people not liking Christians.And they set about answering the question: how can we show solidarity with the persecuted church while at the same time not playing the victim-hood game?Mentioned in this segment:  Open Doors World Watch List 2019: an annual report which lists the countries experiencing the worst persecution of Christians.  Al Jezeera article looking at Muslim persecution, December 2018 You did WHAT now? Looking at what the other M has been up to This episode, it's Megan's turn to read a few articles written by Michael.The first is an article from 2013 on martyrdom (a subject on which Michael did his PhD) for ABC titled Christian martyrdom and modern identity: Against Candida Moss and Salman Rushdie.The second, written for the Sydney Morning Herald was about the missionary John Chau, titled Like Jesus, US missionary accepted death as the price of reaching out. John Allen Chau who a young missionary who was killed by the North Sentinelese people on the isolated North Sentinel Island, seven hundred miles off the coast of mainland India in 2018.Unfortunately, martyrdom has become tied up with suicide bombings, but Michael says Christian martyrdom isn't just about dying for your group. It's also about dying for your enemies. Christians died with words like 'we honour and emperor and pray for him'.Megan questions our use of the word 'martyr' and how we decide who is a martyr. Some in the media have called Israel Folau a martyr, for example, though not as much in Christian circles, observes Megan. "Sometimes we use the idea of martyrdom' in order to justify actions which may not be necessary, or may be unwise, or just wrong," says Megan. Michael reflects that what sometimes happened in the ancient church was people would look for ways to become a martyr. But that's not right, says Michael. Martyrdom is not something we bring down on ourselves, it's something that is in God's sovereignty. So what about John Allen Chau? Was he a martyr or did he just do something silly? Tune in to find out what Megan and Michael think. Mentioned in this segment:  Arthur Davis writing for Eternity: John Chau's death raises serious questions  The Exiled Preacher blog on martyrdom and the Christian life   The Female Martyrs’ #MeToo Message, Lynn Cohick for Christianity Today  Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories but not always the same one Megan and Michael watch Silence, a Scorsese film (you can stream it on SBS On Demand). Martyrdom and persecution is at the heart of this story. Silence is a 2016 historical period drama film directed by Martin Scorsese with a screenplay by Jay Cocks and Scorsese, based on the 1966 novel of the same name by Shūsaku Endō. Silence is the third of Scorsese's films about religious figures struggling with challenges of faith, following The Last Temptation of Christ and Kundun. The film follows the story of two Catholic missionaries (Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver) who travel to Japan in search of their missing mentor (Liam Neeson) - at a time when Catholicism was outlawed.Michael has reviewed the film for the IFES Journal.  

Notes on episode 16 Are we a persecuted people?For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out Do Christians have a persecution complex? And are we being persecuted here in Australia?Discussion around persecution has heated up since the Christchurch shootings where 50 Muslims were killed by a gunman who entered two mosques in March.The conversation has ramped even further since Rugby player Israel Folau posted a message on Instagram with a list of people - including homosexuals - who would be going to hell if they didn't repent, and has been found in high-level breach of the Rugby Australia code of conduct, which means he could lose his job (and $4 million contract). Megan and Michael delve into the complexity of persecution, looking at the news reporting of Christian and Muslim persecution in different parts of the world and asking questions about whether there's more to persecution than just other people not liking Christians.And they set about answering the question: how can we show solidarity with the persecuted church while at the same time not playing the victim-hood game?Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li> <a href="https://www.opendoors.org.za/christian-persecution/world-watch-list-2019/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Open Doors World Watch List</a> 2019: an annual report which lists the countries experiencing the worst persecution of Christians.</li> <li> <a href="https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/muslim-cleansing-global-pandemic-181220084045168.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Al Jezeera article</a> looking at Muslim persecution, December 2018</li> </ul>You did WHAT now? Looking at what the other M has been up to  This episode, it's Megan's turn to read a few articles written by Michael.The first is an article from 2013 on martyrdom (a subject on which Michael did his PhD) for ABC titled <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/religion/christian-martyrdom-and-modern-identity-against-candida-moss-and/10099918" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Christian martyrdom and modern identity: Against Candida Moss and Salman Rushdie. </a> The second, written for the Sydney Morning Herald was about the missionary John Chau, titled <a href="https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/like-jesus-us-missionary-accepted-death-as-the-price-of-reaching-out-20181127-p50ik3.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Like Jesus, US missionary accepted death as the price of reaching out</a>. John Allen Chau who a young missionary who was killed by the North Sentinelese people on the isolated North Sentinel Island, seven hundred miles off the coast of mainland India in 2018.Unfortunately, martyrdom has become tied up with suicide bombings, but Michael says Christian martyrdom isn't just about dying for your group. It's also about dying for your enemies. Christians died with words like 'we honour and emperor and pray for him'.Megan questions our use of the word 'martyr' and how we decide who is a martyr. Some in the media have called Israel Folau a martyr, for example, though not as much in Christian circles, observes Megan. "Sometimes we use the idea of martyrdom' in order to justify actions which may not be necessary, or may be unwise, or just wrong," says Megan. Michael reflects that what sometimes happened in the ancient church was people would look for ways to become a martyr. But that's not right, says Michael. Martyrdom is not something we bring down on ourselves, it's something that is in God's sovereignty. So what about John Allen Chau? Was he a martyr or did he just do something silly? Tune in to find out what Megan and Michael think. Mentioned in this segment: <ul> <li>Arthur Davis writing for Eternity: <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/world/john-chaus-death-raises-serious-questions/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">John Chau's death raises serious questions</a> </li> <li>The Exiled Preacher blog on <a href="http://exiledpreacher.blogspot.com/2007/03/to-die-for-martyrdom-and-christian-life.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">martyrdom and the Christian life</a> </li> <li> <a href="https://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2018/september/female-martyrs-metoo-message-heard.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Female Martyrs’ #MeToo Message</a>, Lynn Cohick for Christianity Today </li> </ul>Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories but not always the same one  Megan and Michael watch Silence, a Scorsese film (you can stream it on SBS On Demand). Martyrdom and persecution is at the heart of this story. Silence is a 2016 historical period drama film directed by Martin Scorsese with a screenplay by Jay Cocks and Scorsese, based on the 1966 novel of the same name by Shūsaku Endō. Silence is the third of Scorsese's films about religious figures struggling with challenges of faith, following The Last Temptation of Christ and Kundun. The film follows the story of two Catholic missionaries (Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver) who travel to Japan in search of their missing mentor (Liam Neeson) - at a time when Catholicism was outlawed.Michael has reviewed the film for the <a href="https://en.ifesjournal.org/the-hidden-glory-of-martyrdom-8dba195addab" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">IFES Journal</a>.

Are we a persecuted people? 

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it outCan social media be done well?It's easy to dehumanise people in social media debates. Just look at the hurtful comments directed at 16-year-old Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg after she spoke at the UN's Climate Action Summit in September 2019.So how do you disagree online without being aggressive? Is it OK for Christians to block or unfriend people? And how can Christians enter into social discussions without making Christianity look mean or dumb?Mentioned in this segment: Michael's Facebook post about those who attacked Greta Thunberg for her Asperger's syndrome The Age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zuboff review – we are the pawns Michael's article: Through a Glass Darkly: Social Media and the Paradox of Virtual Intimacy  Matt Anslow responds to Megan's article 'Social media spirituality': Social media and engaging rightly: in conversation with Megan Powell du Toit  Megan's articles: Social media spirituality and How to negotiate the gender divide on social media  Further reading:Greta Thunberg's Digital Rise Calls Back to a Pre-Digital EraYou did WHAT now? A peek at what the other 'M' has been up toMegan's article on how Christians should respond on social media to the same-sex marriage plebiscite During one of Australia's biggest social debates, Megan chose to speak out about how Christians should speak out online.She raises this crucial point: What's more important to win arguments at all costs or our relationships with people and our gospel witness?Mentioned in this segment: Social media and the SSM plebiscite: a how-to guide Bible verse: James 3:5   The Guardian's review – The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray review – a rightwing diatribe  Further reading:Fact checking sites: Media Bias Fact Check, Associated Press Fact Check and Poynter International Fact Checking Network Glossary:  epistemologically - relating to a branch of philosophy that studies how we know things  polemic - an aggressive attack on or defence of a particular opinion Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same onesJan Fran's social media Can you review social media pages? Yep, looks like it.Megan introduces Michael to Jeanette Francis, better known as Jan Fran – an Australian journalist and presenter, who is also queen of the short video Facebook post. There's a lot to learn from her about social media dos and don'ts.Mentioned in this segment: Jan Fran’s Facebook and Twitter pages, as well as her website  Jane Caro's Twitter page Julia Baird's Twitter page Jan Fran's video ScoMo: Scared of women? Or doesn't want to give up power?  Jan Fran's video The Frant: Gender Wage Gap   The Wife Drought – Why Women need Wives, and Men need Lives by Annabel Crabb Join in the discussion onlinewww.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out Can social media be done well? It's easy to dehumanise people in social media debates. Just look at the hurtful comments directed at 16-year-old Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg after she <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9KxE4Kv9A8" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">spoke at the UN's Climate Action Summit</a> in September 2019.So how do you disagree online without being aggressive? Is it OK for Christians to block or unfriend people? And how can Christians enter into social discussions without making Christianity look mean or dumb?Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li>Michael's <a href="https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10102895424672909&amp;id=36821177" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Facebook post</a> about those who attacked Greta Thunberg for her Asperger's syndrome</li> <li><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/02/age-of-surveillance-capitalism-shoshana-zuboff-review" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zuboff review – we are the pawns</a></li> <li>Michael's article: <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/religion/through-a-glass-darkly-social-media-and-the-paradox-of-virtual-i/10098862" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Through a Glass Darkly: Social Media and the Paradox of Virtual Intimacy</a> </li> <li>Matt Anslow responds to Megan's article 'Social media spirituality': <a href="http://www.ethos.org.au/online-resources/engage-mail/social-media-and-engaging-rightly" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Social media and engaging rightly: in conversation with Megan Powell du Toit</a> </li> <li>Megan's articles: <a href="http://www.ethos.org.au/online-resources/engage-mail/social-media-spirituality" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Social media spirituality</a> and <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/how-to-negotiate-the-gender-divide-on-social-media/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">How to negotiate the gender divide on social media</a> </li> </ul>Further reading:<ul><li><a href="https://www.wired.com/story/greta-thunberg-social-media/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Greta Thunberg's Digital Rise Calls Back to a Pre-Digital Era</a></li></ul>You did WHAT now? A peek at what the other 'M' has been up to Megan's article on how Christians should respond on social media to the same-sex marriage plebiscite  During one of Australia's biggest social debates, Megan chose to speak out about how Christians should speak out online.She raises this crucial point: What's more important to win arguments at all costs or our relationships with people and our gospel witness?Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li><a href="http://www.ethos.org.au/online-resources/engage-mail/social-media-and-the-ssm-plebiscite" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Social media and the SSM plebiscite: a how-to guide</a></li> <li>Bible verse: <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+3%3A5&amp;version=NIV" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">James 3:5</a> </li> <li> The Guardian's review – <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/sep/19/the-madness-of-crowds-review-gender-race-identity-douglas-murray" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray review – a rightwing diatribe</a> </li> </ul>Further reading:<ul><li>Fact checking sites: <a href="https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Media Bias Fact Check</a>, <a href="https://apnews.com/APFactCheck" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Associated Press Fact Check</a> and <a href="https://www.poynter.org/ifcn/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Poynter International Fact Checking Network</a> </li></ul>Glossary:<ul> <li> epistemologically - relating to a branch of philosophy that studies how we know things</li> <li> polemic - an aggressive attack on or defence of a particular opinion</li> </ul>Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones Jan Fran's social media  Can you review social media pages? Yep, looks like it.Megan introduces Michael to Jeanette Francis, better known as Jan Fran – an Australian journalist and presenter, who is also queen of the short video Facebook post. There's a lot to learn from her about social media dos and don'ts.Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li>Jan Fran’s <a href="https://www.facebook.com/janfran/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Facebook</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/Jan__Fran" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Twitter</a> pages, as well as her <a href="https://www.janfran.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">website</a> </li> <li>Jane Caro's <a href="https://twitter.com/JaneCaro" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Twitter</a> page</li> <li>Julia Baird's <a href="https://twitter.com/bairdjulia" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Twitter</a> page</li> <li>Jan Fran's video <a href="https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2031775416942016" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ScoMo: Scared of women? Or doesn't want to give up power?</a> </li> <li>Jan Fran's video <a href="https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2298408850426801" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Frant: Gender Wage Gap</a> </li> <li> <a href="https://www.booktopia.com.au/the-wife-drought-annabel-crabb/book/9780857984289.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Wife Drought</a> – Why Women need Wives, and Men need Lives by Annabel Crabb</li> </ul>Join in the discussion online<a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/ </a>

Social media etiquette 101

** With All Due Respect is taking a short break over August and will be back in the first week of September. First episode back with be about ... GENDER. ** For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out  It's been almost a year since the the first episode of With All Due Respect, and we're coming back to the question that started it all: Can we agree to disagree? Megan says this has become even more crucial since the WADR project began. But it's confession time and Michael jumps straight in: There's one topic that Megan and Michael (and Michael in particular) have been avoiding so far: Gender and the church. It's a topic that marks a deep divide among evangelical Christians, and Christians more generally. It's one of the biggest disagreements Megan and Michael have personally, too. And Michael says he's been avoiding the issue on the podcast because of the painfulness and difficulty that discussing it can often invoke. So how do we tear down those barriers with other Christians who feel so strongly and differently to us? We may never get to common agreement, but trying to find common ground and to understand where each other is coming from should be the aim. Megan says one of the ways she tries to interact with people is remember that that person has just as rich an internal world as she does - with all their life experiences, hurts and joys. So labelling someone (Megan is often labelled as a "progressive feminist") flattens them. And she says assuming someone else's intentions is just as bad in this. Cue: virtue signalling Megan says one way you can assume someone else's intentions - especially online - is by saying they're "virtue signalling". That is, when you are expressing values in a way that people say you're doing it so that you can be seen to be a good person. In Megan's experience, it's often something the right accuses of people on the left. "It's a destructive thing to say to another person and deeply cynical," she says. "The place for dialogue is not where we draw out the worst in people, but where we address the best in people." But telling someone that they're virtue-signalling is essentially shutting down the conversation and refusing to see that there might be other reasons for what they're saying. Michael wonders if the same can be said when someone dismisses his opinion by saying, "You would say that, you're a white male." Both Megan and Michael refer to the With All Due Respect Facebook group, where they are trying to moderate the discussion in a way that reframes conversations and doesn't shut down discussion by the terms and phrases we use. The duo take a look at other Christian podcasts out there who have attempted to frame their conversations in different ways and wonder if often our fences are too high. Is there a place for fences that discourage those who disagree with us? The secret life of us: what makes the other one tick Megan and Michael talk about how they've experienced the With All Due Respect journey and what's come up personally for them. The WADR Facebook Group has been an interesting experiment to see how things in the podcast play out in real (or atleast social) life. And Michael and Megan reminisce about how they first met and their first responses to each other. Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.  This episode, it's Megan's choice: Won’t you be my neighbor? (2018) documentary on Mister Rogers. Fred Rogers (March 20, 1928 – February 27, 2003) was an American television personality, musician, puppeteer, writer, producer, and Presbyterian minister. He was known as the creator, composer, producer, head writer, showrunner and host of the preschool television series Mister Rogers' Neighborhood (1968–2001). Rogers would end each program by telling his viewers, "You've made this day a special day, by just your being you. There's no person in the whole world like you; and I like you just the way you are." Megan thinks there are real connections in what they're trying to do with With All Due Respect. 

** With All Due Respect is taking a short break over August and will be back in the first week of September. First episode back with be about ... GENDER. ** For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out  It's been almost a year since the the first episode of With All Due Respect, and we're coming back to the question that started it all: Can we agree to disagree? Megan says this has become even more crucial since the WADR project began. But it's confession time and Michael jumps straight in: There's one topic that Megan and Michael (and Michael in particular) have been avoiding so far: Gender and the church. It's a topic that marks a deep divide among evangelical Christians, and Christians more generally. It's one of the biggest disagreements Megan and Michael have personally, too. And Michael says he's been avoiding the issue on the podcast because of the painfulness and difficulty that discussing it can often invoke. So how do we tear down those barriers with other Christians who feel so strongly and differently to us? We may never get to common agreement, but trying to find common ground and to understand where each other is coming from should be the aim. Megan says one of the ways she tries to interact with people is remember that that person has just as rich an internal world as she does - with all their life experiences, hurts and joys. So labelling someone (Megan is often labelled as a "progressive feminist") flattens them. And she says assuming someone else's intentions is just as bad in this. Cue: virtue signalling Megan says one way you can assume someone else's intentions - especially online - is by saying they're "virtue signalling". That is, when you are expressing values in a way that people say you're doing it so that you can be seen to be a good person. In Megan's experience, it's often something the right accuses of people on the left. "It's a destructive thing to say to another person and deeply cynical," she says. "The place for dialogue is not where we draw out the worst in people, but where we address the best in people." But telling someone that they're virtue-signalling is essentially shutting down the conversation and refusing to see that there might be other reasons for what they're saying. Michael wonders if the same can be said when someone dismisses his opinion by saying, "You would say that, you're a white male." Both Megan and Michael refer to the With All Due Respect Facebook group, where they are trying to moderate the discussion in a way that reframes conversations and doesn't shut down discussion by the terms and phrases we use. The duo take a look at other Christian podcasts out there who have attempted to frame their conversations in different ways and wonder if often our fences are too high. Is there a place for fences that discourage those who disagree with us? The secret life of us: what makes the other one tick Megan and Michael talk about how they've experienced the With All Due Respect journey and what's come up personally for them. The WADR Facebook Group has been an interesting experiment to see how things in the podcast play out in real (or atleast social) life. And Michael and Megan reminisce about how they first met and their first responses to each other. Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.  This episode, it's Megan's choice: Won’t you be my neighbor? (2018) documentary on Mister Rogers. Fred Rogers (March 20, 1928 – February 27, 2003) was an American television personality, musician, puppeteer, writer, producer, and Presbyterian minister. He was known as the creator, composer, producer, head writer, showrunner and host of the preschool television series Mister Rogers' Neighborhood (1968–2001). Rogers would end each program by telling his viewers, "You've made this day a special day, by just your being you. There's no person in the whole world like you; and I like you just the way you are." Megan thinks there are real connections in what they're trying to do with With All Due Respect.

 Almost one year on, are we any better at respectful conversation?

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it outWill the Religious Discrimination Bill be a good thing?Freedom for Faith's executive director Michael Kellahan is in the hot seat, as Megan and Michael throw some contentious questions at him about the Religious Discrimination Bill: Don't we already have religious freedom in Australia? Can the bill actually create discrimination? Is a bill of rights – which also covers other freedoms – a better approach? Mentioned in this segment:  Draft Religious Freedom Bills – including the Religious Discrimination Bill Sydney Anglican Archbishop's apology over letter about religious freedom  Hobart Catholic Archbishop case of religious freedom Further listening/reading:  With All Due Respect episode 5 – Public vs private schools, religious freedom and *that* letter on gay teachers  A simple guide to the religious discrimination bill The Government’s Plans for Freedom of Religion Legislation Discomfort zone: ever thought someone might think differently if they step outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that. The Madness of Crowds - Gender, Race and Identity by Douglas MurrayMichael chose this book knowing that Megan wouldn't like it. Guess what? She didn't. Written by a journalist for the UK's Spectator, the book tackles the epic issues of sexuality, gender, technology and race, as well as forgiveness and justice.Mentioned in this segment:  The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray  The Guardian's review – The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray review – a rightwing diatribe   Black Lives Matter movement Glossary:  Cultural Marxism: an ambiguous term and many believe that what it refers to doesn't really exist. The term is often used to flag behaviour that applies Marxist class theory to broader categories – such as race, gender and sexuality.  Raison d'etre: A French phrase meaning 'reason for being' Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same onesThe Post Megan introduces us to Steven Spielberg's gripping film on the true story of Washington Post journalists who attempted to publish classified documents about the US government's involvement in the Vietnam War. The film ring bells about the recent Australian police raids on the ABC. It also leads to the question: is freedom of the press worth defending, particularly in this era of fake news?Mentioned in this segment:The PostFurther reading: AFP raid on ABC reveals investigative journalism being put in same category as criminality Katharine Graham's memoir Personal History  Comparing 'The Post' to Katharine Graham’s memoir  Join in the discussion onlinewww.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out Will the Religious Discrimination Bill be a good thing? <a href="https://freedomforfaith.org.au" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Freedom for Faith</a>'s executive director Michael Kellahan is in the hot seat, as Megan and Michael throw some contentious questions at him about the Religious Discrimination Bill:<ul> <li>Don't we already have religious freedom in Australia?</li> <li>Can the bill actually create discrimination?</li> <li>Is a bill of rights – which also covers other freedoms – a better approach?</li> </ul>Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li> <a href="https://www.ag.gov.au/Consultations/Pages/religious-freedom-bills.aspx" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Draft Religious Freedom Bills</a> – including the Religious Discrimination Bill</li> <li>Sydney Anglican <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/archbishop-apologises-for-hurtful-letter/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Archbishop's apology</a> over letter about religious freedom</li> <li> <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/in-depth/hobarts-catholic-archbishop-turned-poster-boy-for-freedom-of-religion/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Hobart Catholic Archbishop</a> case of religious freedom</li> </ul>Further listening/reading:<ul> <li> With All Due Respect episode 5 – <a href="https://share.transistor.fm/s/24bb3363" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Public vs private schools, religious freedom and *that* letter on gay teachers</a> </li> <li><a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/a-simple-guide-to-the-religious-discrimination-bill/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">A simple guide to the religious discrimination bill</a></li> <li><a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/the-governments-plans-for-freedom-of-religion-legislation/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Government’s Plans for Freedom of Religion Legislation</a></li> </ul>Discomfort zone: ever thought someone might think differently if they step outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that.  The Madness of Crowds - Gender, Race and Identity by Douglas MurrayMichael chose this book knowing that Megan wouldn't like it. Guess what? She didn't. Written by a journalist for the UK's Spectator, the book tackles the epic issues of sexuality, gender, technology and race, as well as forgiveness and justice.Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li> <a href="https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-madness-of-crowds-9781635579987/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Madness of Crowds</a> by Douglas Murray</li> <li> The Guardian's review – <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/sep/19/the-madness-of-crowds-review-gender-race-identity-douglas-murray" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray review – a rightwing diatribe</a> </li> <li> <a href="https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Black Lives Matter</a> movement</li> </ul>Glossary:<ul> <li> Cultural Marxism: an ambiguous term and many believe that what it refers to doesn't really exist. The term is often used to flag behaviour that applies Marxist class theory to broader categories – such as race, gender and sexuality.</li> <li> Raison d'etre: A French phrase meaning 'reason for being'</li> </ul>Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones The Post  Megan introduces us to Steven Spielberg's gripping film on the true story of Washington Post journalists who attempted to publish classified documents about the US government's involvement in the Vietnam War. The film ring bells about the recent Australian police raids on the ABC. It also leads to the question: is freedom of the press worth defending, particularly in this era of fake news?Mentioned in this segment:<ul><li><a href="https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_post" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Post</a></li></ul>Further reading:<ul> <li><a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/abc-raids-australian-federal-police-press-freedom/11309810" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">AFP raid on ABC reveals investigative journalism being put in same category as criminality</a></li> <li>Katharine Graham's memoir <a href="https://www.booktopia.com.au/personal-history-katharine-graham/book/9780375701047.html?source=pla&amp;n1=y&amp;gclid=EAIaIQobChMIs962zI3D5QIVGyQrCh2_nwGiEAQYASABEgITvvD_BwE" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personal History</a> </li> <li><a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/entertainment/comparing-the-post-to-katharine-grahams-memoir/2017/12/21/19cabad4-e5c2-11e7-927a-e72eac1e73b6_video.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Comparing 'The Post' to Katharine Graham’s memoir </a></li> </ul>Join in the discussion online <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/</a>

Is religious freedom a good thing?

Hey guys! We're doing a live podcast in April in Sydney. You should definitely come along. More details here.For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it outMegan and Michael get straight into discussing child sexual abuse within the church in the wake of Cardinal George Pell's conviction and sentencing earlier this month on several counts of child sexual abuse while he was Archbishop of Melbourne in the 1990s. They consider whether there is something particular about churches that "makes us more prone to this kind of problem?" Megan suggests clericalism is one of the big problems, not just in the Catholic church but all denominations - putting pastors on a pedestal and expecting more of them. Megan and Michael talk about their own experiences as pastors, and what has started to change in the training and formation of ministers to avoid the abuse of power.Megan also suggests that the fact that most pastors are male also contributes to the problem of abuse in the church. And while Michael says he doesn't necessarily disagree, he has had trouble getting an answer on what specifically would be solved by having more women in the priesthood, and in positions of leadership in churches. Tune in to hear the discussion.If this episode has brought up any issues for you, Lifeline provides all Australians experiencing a personal crisis with access to online, phone and face-to-face crisis support and suicide prevention services.  You can call 13 11 14 any time – it’s open 24 hours.Mentioned in this segment: Royal Commission in institutional responses to child sexual abuse Michael writing for Sydney Morning Herald, March 5 – 'Only hope for institutional Christianity lies in the truth' Michael on ABC's The Drum, talking about the conviction of Cardinal George Pell Josie McSkimming's letter to Sydney Morning Herald, March 6: "I appreciate Reverend Michael Jensen’s sincerity in responding to the pain of victims of abuse and the distress of church members (‘‘Only hope for institutional Christianity lies in truth’’, March 5). As one who has spent many hours with depressed and traumatised victims not only of church abuse, but also the more subtle and strangling experiences of the tendrils of church power, I suggest that the church could respond in a more constructive manner by examining how its institutional practices perpetuate the problems so decried. While you have only men in leadership positions claiming this is the created order for relationships between men and women, you have the potential for abuses of power to increase exponentially." - Josie McSkimming, Coogee(Josie McSkimming is a former Sydney evangelical and has spent many years counselling Christians about their personal experience of Christian fundamentalism and its effects on their sense of identity. She has written about this in chapters and articles) ABC's Q&amp;A and Megan’s question on female leadership Megan writing for Eternity – 'Questioning power after Peterson, Graham and Pell' Look - a new segment!You did WHAT now? A peek at what the other 'M' has been up to. Megan wrote an opinion piece for Eternity seeking to bring together some similar issues that have arisen from the support by many Christians and Christian leaders of the Australian visits of Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson and evangelist Franklin Graham and then the response of some within the church to the conviction of Cardinal Pell. The piece attracted a lot of comments on social media, from Christians on both sides. Michael notes that in writing the piece Megan was applauded by some and accused of being a heretic by others.Megan says she was trying to get across the problem of adulating particular people to the point where it is difficult to question them, and how important it is to not shut down questioners. Michael gives his own verdict on Megan's piece and the issues she was addressing.This is a good example, says Megan, of the lack of respectful conversation among Christians (particularly online) when people disagree with a dominant view.Mentioned in this segment:Megan writing for Eternity – 'Questioning power after Peterson, Graham and Pell'Marg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same ones.Michael and Megan watch Spotlight, the 2015 award-winning movie following the Boston Globe's investigation of child sexual abuse within the Catholic church in Boston. It is based on a series of stories by the "Spotlight" team that earned The Globe the 2003 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service.Mentioned in this segment:Spotlight (watch trailer here), now on NetflixWe're going LIVE this AprilWith All Due Respect will be recording a live podcast special as part of Paddington Anglican's PEACEtalk series, on Thursday 11th April from 7pm. It will be a federal election special: a political and personal conversation minus the polarisation.Join us at PEACEtalks with Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen as we explore some Christians perspectives as we approach the Federal election. Potential segments will include:– For arguments sake: Should our politicians dream dreams and see visions?– The secret life of us: How does who we are determine how we vote?– And a live Q&amp;A with the audienceThis is surely to be a lively conversation in which we get to engage!The event will commence at 7pm with a light dinner followed by the Live Podcast commencing promptly at 7:30pm. Supper will be served after the event. Parking can be tricky, so consider public transport or arriving early.

Hey guys! We're doing a live podcast in April in Sydney. You should definitely come along. <a href="https://www.facebook.com/events/2718056858205473/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">More details here. </a> For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out Megan and Michael get straight into discussing child sexual abuse within the church in the wake of Cardinal George Pell's conviction and sentencing earlier this month on several counts of child sexual abuse while he was Archbishop of Melbourne in the 1990s. They consider whether there is something particular about churches that "makes us more prone to this kind of problem?" Megan suggests clericalism is one of the big problems, not just in the Catholic church but all denominations - putting pastors on a pedestal and expecting more of them. Megan and Michael talk about their own experiences as pastors, and what has started to change in the training and formation of ministers to avoid the abuse of power.Megan also suggests that the fact that most pastors are male also contributes to the problem of abuse in the church. And while Michael says he doesn't necessarily disagree, he has had trouble getting an answer on what specifically would be solved by having more women in the priesthood, and in positions of leadership in churches. Tune in to hear the discussion.If this episode has brought up any issues for you, Lifeline provides all Australians experiencing a personal crisis with access to online, phone and face-to-face crisis support and suicide prevention services.  You can call 13 11 14 any time – it’s open 24 hours. Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li><a href="https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Royal Commission in institutional responses to child sexual abuse</a></li> <li>Michael writing for Sydney Morning Herald, March 5 – <a href="https://www.smh.com.au/national/only-hope-for-institutional-christianity-lies-in-truth-20190304-p511mr.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Only hope for institutional Christianity lies in the truth</a>'</li> <li><a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-26/the-drum-tuesday-february-26/10851836" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Michael on ABC's The Drum, talking about the conviction of Cardinal George Pell</a></li> <li>Josie McSkimming's letter to Sydney Morning Herald, March 6: "I appreciate Reverend Michael Jensen’s sincerity in responding to the pain of victims of abuse and the distress of church members (‘‘Only hope for institutional Christianity lies in truth’’, March 5). As one who has spent many hours with depressed and traumatised victims not only of church abuse, but also the more subtle and strangling experiences of the tendrils of church power, I suggest that the church could respond in a more constructive manner by examining how its institutional practices perpetuate the problems so decried. While you have only men in leadership positions claiming this is the created order for relationships between men and women, you have the potential for abuses of power to increase exponentially." - Josie McSkimming, Coogee(Josie McSkimming is a former Sydney evangelical and has spent many years counselling Christians about their personal experience of Christian fundamentalism and its effects on their sense of identity. She has written about this in chapters and articles)</li> <li><a href="https://www.abc.net.au/qanda/2019-04-03/10838558" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ABC's Q&amp;A and Megan’s question on female leadership</a></li> <li>Megan writing for Eternity – '<a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/questioning-power-after-peterson-graham-and-pell/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Questioning power after Peterson, Graham and Pell</a>'</li> </ul>Look - a new segment! You did WHAT now? A peek at what the other 'M' has been up to.  Megan wrote an opinion piece for Eternity seeking to bring together some similar issues that have arisen from the support by many Christians and Christian leaders of the Australian visits of Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson and evangelist Franklin Graham and then the response of some within the church to the conviction of Cardinal Pell. The piece attracted a lot of comments on social media, from Christians on both sides. Michael notes that in writing the piece Megan was applauded by some and accused of being a heretic by others.Megan says she was trying to get across the problem of adulating particular people to the point where it is difficult to question them, and how important it is to not shut down questioners. Michael gives his own verdict on Megan's piece and the issues she was addressing.This is a good example, says Megan, of the lack of respectful conversation among Christians (particularly online) when people disagree with a dominant view.Mentioned in this segment:<ul><li>Megan writing for Eternity – '<a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/questioning-power-after-peterson-graham-and-pell/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Questioning power after Peterson, Graham and Pell</a>'</li></ul>Marg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same ones. Michael and Megan watch Spotlight, the 2015 award-winning movie following the Boston Globe's investigation of child sexual abuse within the Catholic church in Boston. It is based on a series of stories by the "Spotlight" team that earned The Globe the 2003 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service.Mentioned in this segment:<ul><li>Spotlight (<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg5zSVxx9JM" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">watch trailer here</a>), now on Netflix</li></ul>We're going LIVE this April With All Due Respect will be recording a live podcast special as part of Paddington Anglican's PEACEtalk series, on Thursday 11th April from 7pm. It will be a federal election special: a political and personal conversation minus the polarisation.Join us at PEACEtalks with Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen as we explore some Christians perspectives as we approach the Federal election. Potential segments will include: – For arguments sake: Should our politicians dream dreams and see visions? – The secret life of us: How does who we are determine how we vote? – And a live Q&amp;A with the audience This is surely to be a lively conversation in which we get to engage!The event will commence at 7pm with a light dinner followed by the Live Podcast commencing promptly at 7:30pm. Supper will be served after the event. Parking can be tricky, so consider public transport or arriving early.

The Church in damage control: the Royal Commission, Pell and Spotlight

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out Do you need to 'experience' God in order to have real faith? Michael says he suggested this question because in his pastoral experience there are often questions about whether people should have had a spiritual or religious experience and whether you're a Christian if you haven't had one. What if you don't ever have that feeling some describe as an "immediate, powerful, palpable experience of the spirit" that can be of great encouragement to those who receive them? Megan offers the flipside to this, in that she believes that some in a more intellectually-based faith tradition are often questioned about their spiritual experiences in a way that makes them feel like they're in some way "dodgy". The way different faith communities deal with spiritual or religious experience can make this subject fraught. Michael says his views have changed and he hopes 'matured'. He believes God can give us religious experiences from time to time: they are individual and meant to encourage us. But because they are experiences we must be very careful, he says. We shouldn't normalise those experiences to the extent that those with different ones don't feel like they're Christians or don't feel like they have the Holy Spirit. Megan has a different perspective, coming from her observations of those who don't 'experience God'. "Without experience, faith is ailing," she says. "The experience of God must be present ... but whether we're noticing it is another thing." The way we talk about those experiences and how we teach people to understand them is sub-par in the church today, Megan says. How can we help people to be attentive to God in their lives. Megan believes a pastor must first be attentive to God in their own lives. "There needs to be more room for the contemplation part of the pastoral role," she argues. If you're also immersed in Scripture, you come to understand better how God speaks and acts. Michael says it's also about teaching people to pray. Bible study should also be a place for spiritual direction. It doesn't have to be just about reading the word and understanding the word, but about how to take that understanding into our lives to see the hand of God at work. Listening to others' experiences of God might also make us more attune to the work of God in our own lives, says Megan. It doesn't always have to be listening to God at the top of a mountain or in a cave - it's seeing God in your every day experience, how he meets needs. There is an attentiveness required. A lot of the time the people who say they haven't had an experience of God just need help with the vocabulary to use. Michael warns against the dangers of making experience so much in the foreground that we forget to parse it through Scripture. "We don't have a fresh revelation that overturns scripture." Also mentioned in this segment:The Varieties of Religious Experience by William JamesThe secret life of us: in which we try to figure out what makes the other one tickMegan and Michael discuss their own religious experiences and how they've affected their faith. They look back at how such experiences were spoken about in their families of origin. Michael says he grew up in a Christian household often trying to deal with the tension of being treated as a Christian for as long as he could remember but also waiting for that moment of 'conversion'. He says he certainly had an intellectualised sense of the faith especially in later teens and university. Megan, on the other hand, says her mother is a person who has had many supernatural experiences and so she grew up talking a lot about those experiences and having some of her own. The duo also open up about when they've felt spiritually dry and how they've managed to come back to God. Also mentioned in this segment:CS Lewis’ Surprised by Joy: “For those who are still disposed to proceed I will only underline the quality common to the three experiences; it is that of an unsatisfied desire which is itself more desirable than any other satisfaction. I call it Joy, which is here a technical term and must be sharply distinguished both from Happiness and from Pleasure. Joy (in my sense) has indeed one characteristic, and one only, in common with them; the fact that anyone who has experienced it will want it again.” Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones. Les Murray (17 October 1938 – 29 April 2019) was a prize winning Australian poet, anthologist, and critic. His career spanned over 40 years and he published nearly 30 volumes of poetry as well as two verse novels and collections of his prose writings. He was rated in 1997 by the National Trust of Australia as one of the 100 Australian Living Treasures.Murray's poetry is full of his religious experience. He said it was because that was his experience. "The true god gives his flesh and blood. Idols demand yours off you." That quote, says Michael, which is from Murray's poem Church, should be on church signs everywhere. "It points to the significance of Christ in this consumer economy that sucks us dry," says Michael. Poems mentioned in this segment:  Poetry and Religion An Absolutely Ordinary Rainbow The Broad Bean Sermon The Last Hellos The Church Further reading:  Greg Clarke reflects on Les Murray after his death: Not absolutely ordinary at all  Les Murray's conversion experience, as written by Catholic Weekly Thomas Keneally on Murray's death 

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out  Do you need to 'experience' God in order to have real faith? Michael says he suggested this question because in his pastoral experience there are often questions about whether people should have had a spiritual or religious experience and whether you're a Christian if you haven't had one. What if you don't ever have that feeling some describe as an "immediate, powerful, palpable experience of the spirit" that can be of great encouragement to those who receive them? Megan offers the flipside to this, in that she believes that some in a more intellectually-based faith tradition are often questioned about their spiritual experiences in a way that makes them feel like they're in some way "dodgy". The way different faith communities deal with spiritual or religious experience can make this subject fraught. Michael says his views have changed and he hopes 'matured'. He believes God can give us religious experiences from time to time: they are individual and meant to encourage us. But because they are experiences we must be very careful, he says. We shouldn't normalise those experiences to the extent that those with different ones don't feel like they're Christians or don't feel like they have the Holy Spirit. Megan has a different perspective, coming from her observations of those who don't 'experience God'. "Without experience, faith is ailing," she says. "The experience of God must be present ... but whether we're noticing it is another thing." The way we talk about those experiences and how we teach people to understand them is sub-par in the church today, Megan says. How can we help people to be attentive to God in their lives. Megan believes a pastor must first be attentive to God in their own lives. "There needs to be more room for the contemplation part of the pastoral role," she argues. If you're also immersed in Scripture, you come to understand better how God speaks and acts. Michael says it's also about teaching people to pray. Bible study should also be a place for spiritual direction. It doesn't have to be just about reading the word and understanding the word, but about how to take that understanding into our lives to see the hand of God at work. Listening to others' experiences of God might also make us more attune to the work of God in our own lives, says Megan. It doesn't always have to be listening to God at the top of a mountain or in a cave - it's seeing God in your every day experience, how he meets needs. There is an attentiveness required. A lot of the time the people who say they haven't had an experience of God just need help with the vocabulary to use. Michael warns against the dangers of making experience so much in the foreground that we forget to parse it through Scripture. "We don't have a fresh revelation that overturns scripture." Also mentioned in this segment:<ul><li><a href="https://www.booktopia.com.au/varieties-of-religious-experience-william-james/prod9780486826639.html?source=pla&amp;gclid=Cj0KCQjwpPHoBRC3ARIsALfx-_IOW52ECRuoAigQ2Cph6oVj4PwoDcdtI1AEZFwmDEEuxj2ZN1te1iwaAhWGEALw_wcB" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James</a></li></ul>The secret life of us: in which we try to figure out what makes the other one tick Megan and Michael discuss their own religious experiences and how they've affected their faith. They look back at how such experiences were spoken about in their families of origin. Michael says he grew up in a Christian household often trying to deal with the tension of being treated as a Christian for as long as he could remember but also waiting for that moment of 'conversion'. He says he certainly had an intellectualised sense of the faith especially in later teens and university. Megan, on the other hand, says her mother is a person who has had many supernatural experiences and so she grew up talking a lot about those experiences and having some of her own. The duo also open up about when they've felt spiritually dry and how they've managed to come back to God. Also mentioned in this segment:<ul><li>CS Lewis’ <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/surprised-by-joy-the-shape-of-my-early/9780007461271.jhtml?cpRef=7991&amp;cwRef=12052" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Surprised by Joy</a>: “For those who are still disposed to proceed I will only underline the quality common to the three experiences; it is that of an unsatisfied desire which is itself more desirable than any other satisfaction. I call it Joy, which is here a technical term and must be sharply distinguished both from Happiness and from Pleasure. Joy (in my sense) has indeed one characteristic, and one only, in common with them; the fact that anyone who has experienced it will want it again.” </li></ul>Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.  Les Murray (17 October 1938 – 29 April 2019) was a prize winning Australian poet, anthologist, and critic. His career spanned over 40 years and he published nearly 30 volumes of poetry as well as two verse novels and collections of his prose writings. He was rated in 1997 by the National Trust of Australia as one of the 100 Australian Living Treasures.Murray's poetry is full of his religious experience. He said it was because that was his experience. "The true god gives his flesh and blood. Idols demand yours off you." That quote, says Michael, which is from Murray's poem Church, should be on church signs everywhere. "It points to the significance of Christ in this consumer economy that sucks us dry," says Michael. Poems mentioned in this segment: <ul> <li><a href="https://www.poetrylibrary.edu.au/poets/murray-les/poetry-and-religion-0572031" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Poetry and Religion</a></li> <li><a href="https://www.poetrylibrary.edu.au/poets/murray-les/an-absolutely-ordinary-rainbow-0564002" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">An Absolutely Ordinary Rainbow</a></li> <li><a href="https://www.poetrylibrary.edu.au/poets/murray-les/the-broad-bean-sermon-0565024" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Broad Bean Sermon</a></li> <li><a href="https://www.poetrylibrary.edu.au/poets/murray-les/the-last-hellos-0617132" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Last Hellos</a></li> <li><a href="https://www.poetrylibrary.edu.au/poets/murray-les/church-0617243" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Church</a></li> </ul>Further reading: <ul> <li>Greg Clarke reflects on Les Murray after his death: <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/les-murray-not-absolutely-ordinary-at-all/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Not absolutely ordinary at all</a> </li> <li>Les Murray's <a href="https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/les-murray-a-daily-sacramental-poet/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">conversion experience</a>, as written by Catholic Weekly</li> <li><a href="https://www.smh.com.au/national/i-thought-i-d-have-time-to-reconcile-with-les-murray-20190501-p51j5p.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Thomas Keneally on Murray's death</a></li> </ul>

Religious experience - do we need it and how to find it

Notes on episode 14: Live and in person, it's 'With All Due Respect!' At least, it was last night when Megan and Michael recorded their first live episode at the invitation of PEACEtalks, an initiative of Paddington Anglican Church in Sydney.And... how handy that the federal election was called for the day of our live podcast, all about ... the election!For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it outMegan kicked off with a quote from Franklin D Roosevelt's inaugural address as President of the United States in 1933:“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and of vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. And I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days."Last year, Michael wrote an opinion piece for Eternity asking: What are we worrying about?In it, he writes:“What we need is to become a non-anxious presence in our chronically anxious world. Christians of all people have reason to be non-anxious. We believe that God is sovereign, the mighty Rock who is a stronghold against every threat. We believe we have even our sins dealt with, so that we need not worry about them any more. We have the resources in our faith to be an island of peace in a world that seems to be constantly in turmoil.”The two quotes set the scene for Megan and Michael's discussion of our current political landscape. So, should we be afraid of fear in politics and is it a valid tactic?The pair offer examples of fear-driven politics, including Donald Trump in the United States, and more recently the actions of Senator Fraser Anning in Australia in the aftermath of the Christchurch shootings which tried to instill fear of Islam (by the way, confirming Megan's statistics: Muslims make up 2.6% - 604,200 people - of Australia's population, according to the 2016 census).Megan and Michael chat about the role of emotion more generally in politics including anger, pointing to political actions like the climate change protests by school students. "One of our deep fears is being powerless and not heard," says Michael.Moving beyond ourselves Michael and Megan move on to talking about how to reach "across the aisle" and "speaking the language of the person you may be opposed to", which they feel is sadly lacking in today's political discourse.They talk about what they believe the role of Christians should be in this political climate. "Of all people," says Megan, "Christians shouldn't be using [fear] ..."And yet the pair can point to many occasions where fear is driving Christians and their political engagement, particularly when it comes to religious freedom.Michael says he believes it's getting harder to be a Christian, but Megan says she just doesn't feel that in her personal experience and argues that it's the same people advocating for religious freedom who didn't want to give freedom to other people on issues like same-sex marriage.Also mentioned in this segment: Michael was on ABC's The Drum this week and Megan mentions that what he said about the Get Up! attack ad (around 53:00) by conservative group Advance Australia was relevant to their discussion on tribalism and looking at 'issues' rather than 'parties' or 'groups'. Australian Conservatives QLD Senate candidate Lyle Shelton's campaign launch video.  Freedom for Faith, an organisation advocating for religious freedom Further reading on these issues: Michael arguing for emotions in politics on The Guardian and ABC.   The Conversation: Why fear and anger are rational responses to climate change  The secret life of us: in which we try to figure out what makes the other one tick Megan and Michael talk about the issues that move them and impact their vote, based on author Jonathan Haidt's moral foundations survey.Megan scored high on care, equality, and autonomy; low on equity, authority, loyalty and purity.Michael scored high on care, authority and purity; low on equity, loyalty low on autonomy.(Pssst... their viewpoints on authority in particular cause some friction)With their moral foundations scores as the foundation, the pair discuss what experiences have impacted their voting and what they believe to be the role of government and politicians.Mentioned in this segment:The Righteous Mind by Jonathan HaidtDiscomfort zone: ever thought someone might think differently if they went outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that. Michael asked Megan to read a piece he wrote in 2015 for The Guardian titled, We shouldn't trust orators, visionaries and dreamers to lead us which he wrote about Malcolm Turnbull becoming Prime Minister. Michael says he wanted Megan to read this article to draw out the differences in their perspectives on the role of politicians. Megan calls herself an idealist. Michael says he is much more pragmatic and believes the job of casting a vision for a nation is a dangerous thing to give to politicians because it can produce nationalism.You can help Eternity share seriously good news by donating today at eternitynews.com.au/donateMegan, though, says it's dangerous not to expect our politicians to dream. She references another article in The Guardian in defense of idealism, that suggests that a failure of our leaders to project a clear vision leaves space for those with dangerous and 'perverse' dreams ... like Donald Trump.The pair debate whether it's possible to enact necessary change without big political dreams.Then, Megan asked Michael to watch three West Wing episodes, the popular television show created by Aaron Sorkin:Take this Sabbath Day, Season 1, Ep 14 The Supremes, Season 5, Ep 172162 Votes, Season 6, Ep 22Michael says while he did enjoy West Wing, he still thinks House of Cards and Yes, Minister "speak more truly". The duo discuss the show's idealism and sentiment and what it means for our politics today.Also mentioned in this segment:Greg Sheridan's book, God is good for youMarg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same onesAt Megan's suggestion, the pair watch Death of Stalin, is a 2017 political satire black comedy film, which Megan describes as an "effective movie against idealism" But what does it say about power and the humanisation of evil?

Notes on episode 14:  Live and in person, it's 'With All Due Respect!' At least, it was last night when Megan and Michael recorded their first live episode at the invitation of <a href="http://paddington.church/peacetalks/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">PEACEtalks</a>, an initiative of Paddington Anglican Church in Sydney.And... how handy that the federal election was called for the day of our live podcast, all about ... the election!For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out Megan kicked off with a quote from Franklin D Roosevelt's <a href="http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/froos1.asp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">inaugural address</a> as President of the United States in 1933:“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and of vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. And I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days."Last year, Michael wrote an opinion piece for Eternity asking: <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/what-we-are-worrying-about/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">What are we worrying about?</a>In it, he writes:“What we need is to become a non-anxious presence in our chronically anxious world. Christians of all people have reason to be non-anxious. We believe that God is sovereign, the mighty Rock who is a stronghold against every threat. We believe we have even our sins dealt with, so that we need not worry about them any more. We have the resources in our faith to be an island of peace in a world that seems to be constantly in turmoil.”The two quotes set the scene for Megan and Michael's discussion of our current political landscape. So, should we be afraid of fear in politics and is it a valid tactic?The pair offer examples of fear-driven politics, including Donald Trump in the United States, and more recently the actions of <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/fraser-anning-dont-drag-jesus-into-your-hatred/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Senator Fraser Anning</a> in Australia in the aftermath of the Christchurch shootings which tried to instill fear of Islam (by the way, confirming Megan's statistics: Muslims make up 2.6% - 604,200 people - of Australia's population, according to the 2016 census).Megan and Michael chat about the role of emotion more generally in politics including anger, pointing to political actions like the <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/world/climate-strikes-to-the-heart/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">climate change protests by school students.</a> "One of our deep fears is being powerless and not heard," says Michael.Moving beyond ourselves  Michael and Megan move on to talking about how to reach "across the aisle" and "speaking the language of the person you may be opposed to", which they feel is sadly lacking in today's political discourse.They talk about what they believe the role of Christians should be in this political climate. "Of all people," says Megan, "Christians shouldn't be using [fear] ..."And yet the pair can point to many occasions where fear is driving Christians and their political engagement, particularly when it comes to religious freedom.Michael says he believes it's getting harder to be a Christian, but Megan says she just doesn't feel that in her personal experience and argues that it's the same people advocating for religious freedom who didn't want to give freedom to other people on issues like same-sex marriage.Also mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li>Michael was on <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-10/the-drum-wednesday-april-4/10990932" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ABC's The Drum</a> this week and Megan mentions that what he said about the Get Up! attack ad (around 53:00) by conservative group Advance Australia was relevant to their discussion on tribalism and looking at 'issues' rather than 'parties' or 'groups'.</li> <li>Australian Conservatives QLD Senate candidate Lyle Shelton's campaign launch <a href="https://www.facebook.com/lylegshelton/videos/2206133499453673/UzpfSTk5OTgwMTgzMzUwNzQxMToxMzUzMjQ3NjE0ODI5NDk2/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">video</a>.</li> <li> <a href="https://freedomforfaith.org.au/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Freedom for Faith</a>, an organisation advocating for religious freedom</li> </ul>Further reading on these issues:<ul> <li>Michael arguing for emotions in politics on <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/23/if-we-cant-be-emotional-about-the-plight-of-desperate-people-what-have-we-become?fbclid=IwAR1XizqZl0DQy-N-7SJLgcX5kxF8p0dHjcJ6N-ZG9rJ0YqhjQ2mvlGDttpY" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Guardian</a> and <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-06/jensen-why-we-love-rage/6002174?fbclid=IwAR25jRSXzO_3eHebbj1hl3PNd2pxi5Z26VIEhutY51H_ndeD7NJ-QcZUSoU" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ABC</a>.  </li> <li>The Conversation:<a href="https://theconversation.com/why-fear-and-anger-are-rational-responses-to-climate-change-114056" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> Why fear and anger are rational responses to climate change</a> </li> </ul>The secret life of us: in which we try to figure out what makes the other one tick  Megan and Michael talk about the issues that move them and impact their vote, based on author Jonathan Haidt's moral foundations <a href="https://www.yourmorals.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">survey</a>.Megan scored high on care, equality, and autonomy; low on equity, authority, loyalty and purity.Michael scored high on care, authority and purity; low on equity, loyalty low on autonomy.(Pssst... their viewpoints on authority in particular cause some friction)With their moral foundations scores as the foundation, the pair discuss what experiences have impacted their voting and what they believe to be the role of government and politicians.Mentioned in this segment:<ul><li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Mind-Divided-Politics-Religion/dp/0307455777" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt</a></li></ul>Discomfort zone: ever thought someone might think differently if they went outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that.  Michael asked Megan to read a piece he wrote in 2015 for The Guardian titled, <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/14/we-shouldnt-trust-orators-visionaries-and-dreamers-to-lead-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">We shouldn't trust orators, visionaries and dreamers to lead us</a> which he wrote about Malcolm Turnbull becoming Prime Minister. Michael says he wanted Megan to read this article to draw out the differences in their perspectives on the role of politicians. Megan calls herself an idealist. Michael says he is much more pragmatic and believes the job of casting a vision for a nation is a dangerous thing to give to politicians because it can produce nationalism.You can help Eternity share seriously good news by donating today at <a href="http://eternitynews.com.au/donateMegan" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">eternitynews.com.au/donateMegan</a>, though, says it's dangerous not to expect our politicians to dream. She references another article in <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/03/utopian-thinking-idealism-drives-politicians" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Guardian in defense of idealism</a>, that suggests that a failure of our leaders to project a clear vision leaves space for those with dangerous and 'perverse' dreams ... like Donald Trump.The pair debate whether it's possible to enact necessary change without big political dreams.Then, Megan asked Michael to watch three West Wing episodes, the popular television show created by Aaron Sorkin:<a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0745683/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Take this Sabbath Day, Season 1, Ep 14  </a> <a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0745708/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Supremes, Season 5, Ep 17 </a> <a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0745586/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">2162 Votes, Season 6, Ep 22 </a> Michael says while he did enjoy West Wing, he still thinks House of Cards and Yes, Minister "speak more truly". The duo discuss the show's idealism and sentiment and what it means for our politics today.Also mentioned in this segment:Greg Sheridan's book, <a href="https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/general-books/current-affairs-politics/God-is-Good-for-You-Greg-Sheridan-9781760632601" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">God is good for you </a> Marg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same ones At Megan's suggestion, the pair watch Death of Stalin, is a 2017 political satire black comedy film, which Megan describes as an "effective movie against idealism" But what does it say about power and the humanisation of evil?

Our first live episode on #election2019, the 'Christian vote' and West Wing idealism

In For Arguments Sake, Megan and Michael do us all a favour and explain what exactly is the culture war. With that out of the way, they try to put party politics aside and discuss examples of such warfare - and whether Christians should be trying to win these battles. Shockingly, Michael and Megan had starkly different reactions to that Gillette ad when they first saw it but they push through to explore the hot button topic of toxic masculinity. From here, it's head-long into the vexing issue of how to respond to the war "out there".Michael puts Megan into the Discomfort Zone by asking her to read the enormously titled 'The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure' by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt. Perplexed by the choice of title and how it fuels the culture war, Megan also has some issues with the solutions offered to the problems raised by Lukianoff and Haidt. But what 'Coddling' opens up is a meaty discussion about resilience, morality and always placing your feelings or experience above everything else.Finally, in Marg and Dave, Michael finally convinced Megan to see controversial musical The Book of Mormon (finishing in Sydney but about to go to Brisbane). With both stressing that it's a shocking show - "the most profane production I've ever seen," reports Megan - Michael upholds the other surprise factors on offer. Turns out you can get lessons on belief, suffering and Western stereotypes from the potty-mouthed creators of South Park.  Michael’s SMH review   Michael’s Eternity article   

In For Arguments Sake, Megan and Michael do us all a favour and explain what exactly is the culture war. With that out of the way, they try to put party politics aside and discuss examples of such warfare - and whether Christians should be trying to win these battles. Shockingly, Michael and Megan had starkly different reactions to that <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Gillette ad</a> when they first saw it but they push through to explore the hot button topic of toxic masculinity. From here, it's head-long into the vexing issue of how to respond to the war "out there". Michael puts Megan into the Discomfort Zone by asking her to read the enormously titled '<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224897" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure' by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt</a>. Perplexed by the<a href="https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/09/04/co-author-discusses-new-book-criticizing-prevailing-ideas-society-and-higher" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> choice of title </a>and how it fuels the culture war, Megan also has some issues with the solutions offered to the problems raised by Lukianoff and Haidt. But what 'Coddling' opens up is a meaty discussion about resilience, morality and always placing your feelings or experience above everything else.<a href="https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/09/04/co-author-discusses-new-book-criticizing-prevailing-ideas-society-and-higher" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> </a> Finally, in Marg and Dave, Michael finally convinced Megan to see controversial musical <a href="http://bookofmormonmusical.com.au/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Book of Mormon</a> (finishing in Sydney but about to go to Brisbane). With both stressing that it's a shocking show - "the most profane production I've ever seen," reports Megan - Michael upholds the other surprise factors on offer. Turns out you can get lessons on belief, suffering and Western stereotypes from the potty-mouthed creators of South Park.<ul> <li> <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-30/what-does-the-book-of-mormon-say-about-easter3f/9602124" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Michael’s SMH review</a> </li> <li> <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/what-the-mormons-got-right/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Michael’s Eternity article</a> <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-30/what-does-the-book-of-mormon-say-about-easter3f/9602124" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> </a> </li> </ul>

Ep 9: The culture war: universities, the Gillette ad and The Book of Mormon

Franklin Graham

In For Argument’s Sake, Megan and Michael tackle the upcoming visit to Australia by evangelist Franklin Graham (son of legendary preacher Billy). They focus upon the controversy surrounding Franklin Graham's visit and how he doesn't have the same ability to unite Christians as his father. With Franklin Graham's vocal support for President Trump stirring widespread debate, Megan explains she has other concerns about his relationship with the politics of power and sexuality. Both Michael and Megan ask: should you attend a gospel event led by a person you disagree with?In Discomfort Zone, Megan asked Michael to do something outside his usual sphere - read Rebecca Traister's book Good and Mad: The Revolutionary Power of Women's Anger (particularly one lengthy section about President Trump). Michael has questions for Megan about solidarity between women around the world before our duo dive into the biblical concept of vengeance. Oh, and whether anger is only associated with men. And how can anger be responded to.Then, in Marg and Dave, Megan and Michael dare to enter Netflix series Black Mirror, a near-future commentary about humanity's misuse of technology. Megan and Michael watched the episode Nosedive - about one woman (Bryce Dallas Howard) experiencing a harsh rating system - and marvel at its clear parallels with our world. But what does judging each other have to do with Christianity? Oh, wait ...

In For Argument’s Sake, Megan and Michael tackle the upcoming visit to Australia by evangelist Franklin Graham (son of legendary preacher Billy). They focus upon the controversy surrounding Franklin Graham's visit and how he doesn't have the same ability to unite Christians as his father. With Franklin Graham's vocal support for President Trump stirring widespread debate, Megan explains she has other concerns about his relationship with the politics of power and sexuality. Both Michael and Megan ask: should you attend a gospel event led by a person you disagree with?In Discomfort Zone, Megan asked Michael to do something outside his usual sphere - read Rebecca Traister's book Good and Mad: The Revolutionary Power of Women's Anger (particularly one lengthy section about President Trump). Michael has questions for Megan about solidarity between women around the world before our duo dive into the biblical concept of vengeance. Oh, and whether anger is only associated with men. And how can anger be responded to.Then, in Marg and Dave, Megan and Michael dare to enter Netflix series Black Mirror, a near-future commentary about humanity's misuse of technology. Megan and Michael watched the episode Nosedive - about one woman (Bryce Dallas Howard) experiencing a harsh rating system - and marvel at its clear parallels with our world. But what does judging each other have to do with Christianity? Oh, wait ...

Ep 8: Franklin Graham, angry women and Black Mirror

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out While beauty can be an abstract subject, it's also something that cuts into our everyday lives. Megan and Michael wanted to talk about this subject because they both feel the evangelical world can feel a bit confining when talking about beauty. Megan says her experience of baptists in particular is that they have a strained relationship with beauty."There's a suspicion of the beautiful, which goes back to the church fathers," says Michael. Something also happens during the Reformation, when Protestants want to get away from the visual, smash the statues and go back to the verbal. Luther even said that the ears are the organ of the Christian, not the eyes.Evangelicalism is quite a pragmatic faith. "We're not cathedral builders," says Michael. "We want to things to make a difference," says Megan, so the feeling is that there's no time for "frippery".Michael and Megan explore what beauty is - is it just 'high art' or is it broader than that? What can nature teach us about beauty? And is there a commonality of the experience of beauty that might be objective truth?Megan has been reading Culture Care by Makoto Fujimura - an artist, academic and Christian -which issues a call to feed our culture's soul with beauty, creativity and generosity. As many Christians become more embattled in culture wars, Fujimura is asking how Christians can be people who draw others into beauty.Also mentioned in this segment: The deepening crisis is evangelical Christianity in The Atlantic: "Evangelical Christians need another model for cultural and political engagement, and one of the best I am aware of has been articulated by the artist Makoto Fujimura, who speaks about “culture care” instead of “culture war."Where credit's due: the influences that form and move usIt's Megan's turn to pick a book that was meaningful to her: Surprised by Joy by CS Lewis - the story of Lewis being converted to belief in God and then eventually to belief in Christianity.Lewis' experience of beauty - which he calls experiences of joy - resonated with Megan, particularly when Lewis talks of creating imaginative worlds with his brothers as a child.Michael says he picked up on the sense of longing through Lewis' work -  deep in the heart of humans there is something that longs for the eternal.Beauty, says Megan, shows us that things are significant, special. As the poet Gerard Manley Hopkins writes, "The world is charged with the grandeur of God."Further reading:Michael has written on beauty for Eternity – Are Christians scared of beauty? and Why is there beauty in the world? Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones. We're talking transcendent music and faith. And Michael wants to talk about Bach: "The Christian who has done more to advance the cause of beauty than anyone is Johann Sebastian Bach," he says.Megan, on the other hand, says the music that makes her think of beauty is African American spirituals: "there's a beauty in the sadness, but yet the hope ... there's a beauty that comes out of a the experience of humanity." One song in particular featured in season 3 of The Handmaid's Tale during a scene of infant baptism, 'Down to the river to pray'.Also mentioned in this segment: Well-Tempered Clavier, Bach Mass in B Minor, Bach  O Sacred Head Sore Wounded (From St Matthew's Passion, Bach)  Down to the River to Pray, Alison Krauss version as seen on The Handmaid's Tale  

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out  While beauty can be an abstract subject, it's also something that cuts into our everyday lives. Megan and Michael wanted to talk about this subject because they both feel the evangelical world can feel a bit confining when talking about beauty. Megan says her experience of baptists in particular is that they have a strained relationship with beauty."There's a suspicion of the beautiful, which goes back to the church fathers," says Michael. Something also happens during the Reformation, when Protestants want to get away from the visual, smash the statues and go back to the verbal. Luther even said that the ears are the organ of the Christian, not the eyes.Evangelicalism is quite a pragmatic faith. "We're not cathedral builders," says Michael. "We want to things to make a difference," says Megan, so the feeling is that there's no time for "frippery".Michael and Megan explore what beauty is - is it just 'high art' or is it broader than that? What can nature teach us about beauty? And is there a commonality of the experience of beauty that might be objective truth?Megan has been reading <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/culture-care-makoto-fujimura-mark-labberton/9780830845033.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Culture Care by Makoto Fujimura</a> - an artist, academic and Christian -which issues a call to feed our culture's soul with beauty, creativity and generosity. As many Christians become more embattled in culture wars, Fujimura is asking how Christians can be people who draw others into beauty.Also mentioned in this segment:<ul><li> <a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/evangelical-christians-face-deepening-crisis/593353/?utm_term=2019-07-05T10%3A00%3A17&amp;utm_campaign=the-atlantic&amp;utm_source=twitter&amp;utm_content=edit-promo&amp;utm_medium=social" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The deepening crisis is evangelical Christianity in The Atlantic: </a>"Evangelical Christians need another model for cultural and political engagement, and one of the best I am aware of has been articulated by the artist Makoto Fujimura, who speaks about “culture care” instead of “culture war."</li></ul>Where credit's due: the influences that form and move us It's Megan's turn to pick a book that was meaningful to her: <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/surprised-by-joy-the-shape-of-my-early/9780007461271.jhtml?cpRef=7991&amp;cwRef=12052" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Surprised by Joy by CS Lewis</a> - the story of Lewis being converted to belief in God and then eventually to belief in Christianity.Lewis' experience of beauty - which he calls experiences of joy - resonated with Megan, particularly when Lewis talks of creating imaginative worlds with his brothers as a child.Michael says he picked up on the sense of longing through Lewis' work -  deep in the heart of humans there is something that longs for the eternal.Beauty, says Megan, shows us that things are significant, special. As the poet Gerard Manley Hopkins writes, "The world is charged with the grandeur of God."Further reading:<ul><li>Michael has written on beauty for Eternity – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/archive/christians-scared-beauty/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Are Christians scared of beauty?</a> and <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/why-is-there-beauty-in-the-world/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Why is there beauty in the world?</a> </li></ul>Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.  We're talking transcendent music and faith. And Michael wants to talk about Bach: "The Christian who has done more to advance the cause of beauty than anyone is Johann Sebastian Bach," he says.Megan, on the other hand, says the music that makes her think of beauty is African American spirituals: "there's a beauty in the sadness, but yet the hope ... there's a beauty that comes out of a the experience of humanity." One song in particular featured in season 3 of The Handmaid's Tale during a scene of infant baptism, 'Down to the river to pray'.Also mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX_wvYfjTiI" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Well-Tempered Clavier, Bach</a></li> <li><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So704KMhspk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Mass in B Minor, Bach</a></li> <li> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M4uUJibpvw" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">O Sacred Head Sore Wounded</a> (From St Matthew's Passion, Bach)</li> <li> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/track/3WJ8xIHrNTtP5YsXOqqyml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Down to the River to Pray</a>, Alison Krauss version as seen on The Handmaid's Tale </li> </ul>

What good is beauty in an ugly world? 

Notes from Episode 12: Is it a sin to talk about sin? For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it outMegan and Michael dig into the giant topic that is: SIN. What is it? And what effect does it have on human beings? Christians have plenty of hang ups about using the word 'sin'. Megan says in some Christian tribes, it's not a popular word at all. Yet despite the wariness around the word, Megan says she likes it. "I find the word 'sin' is one where my evangelicalism and my feminism intersects." Tune in to find out how these "strange bedfellows" (as Michael puts it) come together. Meanwhile, the duo discuss the differences between individual and social/systemic sin and the traps in talking about one more than the other, looking specifically at #MeToo as an example.When the discussion inevitably gets to 'Agency' and 'Liberty', Megan and Michael address one of their key differences. Michael is a Calvinist, Megan calls herself "a particular kind of Arminian" (don't worry - they give a quick crash course on those terms!) And so ... bring on the arguments about free will.Mentioned in this segment: Not The Way It's Supposed to Be by Cornelius Platinga (Jr) Valerie Saiving “The Human Situation: A Feminine View.” Q&amp;A: You ask us questions, and we answer without the spin. Megan and Michael pick two questions to tackle: Are some sins worse than others? Does intent make a difference? Marg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same ones.Michael and Megan take a look at Kendrick Lamar's Pulitzer-winning album, Damn, though both say it's not what they would have chosen to listen to personally. However, Lamar is open about his own faith and the album has many references to sin, pride, lust and also humility and love. Looking specifically at the song Fear, Megan and Michael discuss what a 'fear of God' means and why Lamar chose to emphasise the fear over the love of God. 

Notes from Episode 12: Is it a sin to talk about sin?  For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out Megan and Michael dig into the giant topic that is: SIN. What is it? And what effect does it have on human beings? Christians have plenty of hang ups about using the word 'sin'. Megan says in some Christian tribes, it's not a popular word at all. Yet despite the wariness around the word, Megan says she likes it. "I find the word 'sin' is one where my evangelicalism and my feminism intersects." Tune in to find out how these "strange bedfellows" (as Michael puts it) come together. Meanwhile, the duo discuss the differences between individual and social/systemic sin and the traps in talking about one more than the other, looking specifically at #MeToo as an example.When the discussion inevitably gets to 'Agency' and 'Liberty', Megan and Michael address one of their key differences. Michael is a Calvinist, Megan calls herself "a particular kind of Arminian" (don't worry - they give a quick crash course on those terms!) And so ... bring on the arguments about free will.Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li><a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/not-the-way-its-supposed-to-be-cornelius/0802837166.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Not The Way It's Supposed to Be by Cornelius Platinga (Jr)</a></li> <li><a href="https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/485231" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Valerie Saiving “The Human Situation: A Feminine View.”</a></li> </ul>Q&amp;A: You ask us questions, and we answer without the spin.  Megan and Michael pick two questions to tackle:<ul> <li>Are some sins worse than others?</li> <li>Does intent make a difference?</li> </ul>Marg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same ones. Michael and Megan take a look at <a href="https://genius.com/albums/Kendrick-lamar/Damn" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Kendrick Lamar's Pulitzer-winning album, </a>Damn, though both say it's not what they would have chosen to listen to personally. However, Lamar is open about his own faith and the album has many references to sin, pride, lust and also humility and love. Looking specifically at the song Fear, Megan and Michael discuss what a 'fear of God' means and why Lamar chose to emphasise the fear over the love of God.

Is it a sin to talk about sin?

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out As the NSW Parliament considers whether or not abortion should be legalised, Megan and Michael discuss the broader issues raised by the abortion debate: What does it mean to be pro-life or pro-choice? Can you be both at the same time? How do you balance the rights of the unborn child with women's agency over their own bodies? When does human life start anyway? Does legalising abortion automatically equate to an increase in the number of abortions? How should Christians respond to this increasingly politicised issue? And what about the hot-button topics of gender selection and disability. Who determines whether or not a life is valuable?Megan and Michael draw on the wisdom of a parent of a child with a disability, With All Due Respect listener Alison Preston, in debating this life-and-death issue.One thing is clear: the law alone is inadequate in addressing a topic that requires a whole community response.Mentioned in this segment:  The NSW Reproductive Healthcare Reform Bill Alison Preston writes for Eternity about her decision to go through with her pregnancy and the joy her child has brought – The joy of having a baby with Down syndrome  Further reading:  Eternity article on the Reproductive Health Care Reform Bill 2019 – Christians suggest changes to abortion bill   Eternity opinion article by Paul O’Rourke, CEO of pro-life media and advocacy organisation, Emily’s Voice – What the Bible says about abortion  You did WHAT now? Looking at what the other M has been up toMichael, always prepared to put himself on the line, has been stepping into the charged abortion debate on social media and in the press in an attempt to change the tone of the conversation.A descendant of "backyard abortionists", Michael is aware of the "real human cost of an unregulated abortion industry", as well as the moral complexity of the abortion issue.He makes this vital point for everyone in the church: In a society where one-quarter of women will experience an abortion, "If you don't think you have women in your congregation who have had an abortion, think again."So how can Christians respond graciously instead of aggressively to this polarising issue? Listen up to how Michael and Megan are doing it.Mentioned in this segment: Michael's Facebook post and subsequent article in The Daily Telegraph – Pro-life or choice, abortion nothing to celebrate  Michael's appearance on the ABC's The Drum program – Episode 154, September 5, 2019   Eternity article on the first 'Stand for Life' protest – Thousands gather in Sydney in last ditch effort to stop abortion bill  Further reading:  Eternity article on the second 'Stand for Life' protest – Abortion rally told ‘Choose Life!’   Eternity opinion article by church minister Mike Paget – Yes, there's abortion in your church  Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same onesNow we're squarely in Megan's domain: discussing Season 3 of the dystopian TV series The Handmaid’s Tale – in particular episodes 8, 9 and 13 (the final).Why has this show become so connected to the abortion debate (so that just wearing a red cloak signals a pro-choice stance)?Megan guides Michael, and listeners, through the undercurrents of death-happy Gilead, exploring the nuances of values, conflict, faith and society.Here's a taste of just one of the profound revelations Megan uncovers: "Looking after children is more than just getting them born; it is about giving them good lives."Further reading:  Independent article on the show's connection to real life – The Handmaid's Tale compared to Alabama abortion law vote: 'This is happening in our country in 2019'  Margaret Atwood speaks to Her about her book that sparked the TV series – The author of The Handmaid's Tale has plenty to say about anti-abortion laws   Eternity articles on The Handmaid's Tale – Has The Handmaid's Tale become ho-hum and The Handmaid’s Tale: religion gone wrong  

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out  As the NSW Parliament considers whether or not abortion should be legalised, Megan and Michael discuss the broader issues raised by the abortion debate:<ul> <li>What does it mean to be pro-life or pro-choice? Can you be both at the same time?</li> <li>How do you balance the rights of the unborn child with women's agency over their own bodies?</li> <li>When does human life start anyway?</li> <li>Does legalising abortion automatically equate to an increase in the number of abortions?</li> <li>How should Christians respond to this increasingly politicised issue?</li> </ul>And what about the hot-button topics of gender selection and disability. Who determines whether or not a life is valuable?Megan and Michael draw on the wisdom of a parent of a child with a disability, With All Due Respect listener Alison Preston, in debating this life-and-death issue.One thing is clear: the law alone is inadequate in addressing a topic that requires a whole community response.Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li> <a href="https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/committees/inquiries/Pages/inquiry-details.aspx?pk=2547" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The NSW Reproductive Healthcare Reform Bil</a>l</li> <li>Alison Preston writes for Eternity about her decision to go through with her pregnancy and the joy her child has brought – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/the-joy-of-having-a-baby-with-down-syndrome/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The joy of having a baby with Down syndrome</a> </li> </ul>Further reading:<ul> <li> Eternity article on the Reproductive Health Care Reform Bill 2019 – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/christians-suggest-changes-to-abortion-bill/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Christians suggest changes to abortion bill </a> </li> <li>Eternity opinion article by Paul O’Rourke, CEO of pro-life media and advocacy organisation, Emily’s Voice – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/what-the-bible-says-about-abortion/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">What the Bible says about abortion</a> </li> </ul>You did WHAT now? Looking at what the other M has been up to Michael, always prepared to put himself on the line, has been stepping into the charged abortion debate on social media and in the press in an attempt to change the tone of the conversation.A descendant of "backyard abortionists", Michael is aware of the "real human cost of an unregulated abortion industry", as well as the moral complexity of the abortion issue.He makes this vital point for everyone in the church: In a society where <a href="https://www.childrenbychoice.org.au/factsandfigures/australian-abortion-statistics" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">one-quarter of women will experience an abortion</a>, "If you don't think you have women in your congregation who have had an abortion, think again."So how can Christians respond graciously instead of aggressively to this polarising issue? Listen up to how Michael and Megan are doing it.Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li>Michael's <a href="https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10102861027095929&amp;id=36821177" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Facebook post</a> and subsequent article in The Daily Telegraph – <a href="https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=DTWEB_WRE170_a&amp;dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailytelegraph.com.au%2Fnews%2Fopinion%2Fmichael-jensen-prolife-or-choice-abortion-nothing-to-celebrate%2Fnews-story%2Fc62556daa8349d8567a23137c0f34e1b&amp;memtype=anonymous&amp;mode=premium&amp;v21suffix=45-b" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pro-life or choice, abortion nothing to celebrate</a> </li> <li>Michael's appearance on the ABC's The Drum program – <a href="https://iview.abc.net.au/show/drum/series/0/video/NC1907H154S00" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Episode 154, September 5, 2019</a> </li> <li> Eternity article on the first 'Stand for Life' protest – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/thousands-gather-in-sydney-in-last-ditch-effort-to-stop-abortion-bill/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Thousands gather in Sydney in last ditch effort to stop abortion bill</a> </li> </ul>Further reading:<ul> <li> Eternity article on the second 'Stand for Life' protest – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/abortion-rally-told-choose-life/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Abortion rally told ‘Choose Life!’</a> </li> <li> Eternity opinion article by church minister Mike Paget – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/yes-theres-abortion-in-your-church/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Yes, there's abortion in your church</a> </li> </ul> Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones Now we're squarely in Megan's domain: discussing Season 3 of the dystopian TV series The Handmaid’s Tale – in particular episodes 8, 9 and 13 (the final).Why has this show become so connected to the abortion debate (so that just wearing a red cloak signals a pro-choice stance)?Megan guides Michael, and listeners, through the undercurrents of death-happy Gilead, exploring the nuances of values, conflict, faith and society.Here's a taste of just one of the profound revelations Megan uncovers: "Looking after children is more than just getting them born; it is about giving them good lives."Further reading:<ul> <li> Independent article on the show's connection to real life – <a href="https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-handmaids-tale-alabama-abortion-law-hb314-bill-twitter-a8915606.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Handmaid's Tale compared to Alabama abortion law vote: 'This is happening in our country in 2019'</a> </li> <li>Margaret Atwood speaks to Her about her book that sparked the TV series – <a href="https://www.her.ie/news/author-handmaids-tale-plenty-say-anti-abortion-laws-349766" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The author of The Handmaid's Tale has plenty to say about anti-abortion laws</a> </li> <li> Eternity articles on The Handmaid's Tale – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/culture/has-the-handmaids-tale-become-ho-hum/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Has The Handmaid's Tale become ho-hum</a> and <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/the-handmaids-tale-religion-gone-wrong/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Handmaid’s Tale: religion gone wrong</a> </li> </ul>

Abortion law, Christians and The Handmaid's Tale

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it outAre family values biblical?What's more important, our nuclear family or our church family? Do we idolise marriage in the church and in society at the expense of other relationships?Megan and Michael decode the cosy phrase "family values" and look at what the Bible actually says on the topic.Mentioned in this segment:Book by Eli J. Finkel that outlines the history of marriage – The All-or-Nothing Marriage Glossary:Megan and Michael sometimes like to use big words, so here's a glossary of particularly lofty terms in this segment.  deleterious: causing harm or damage  raison d'etre: A French phrase meaning reason for being  sesquipedalian: used to describe a word that's very long (OK this wasn't really mentioned in the segment but you see why it's applicable) Be our guestDani Treweek and a theology of singlenessOur guest this episode, Dani Treweek, has spent a lot of time thinking about singleness and the church – as a single Christian woman, a minister and in writing her PhD on a theological and pastoral ethic of singleness."Part of the problem with singleness is that we see it as a problem because it's not marriage," she explains.Michael and Megan chat with Dani about the biblical view of singleness and marriage, and how the church can better relate to singles.Mentioned in this segment: Dani Treweek's blog on Sydney Anglicans website (addressing John MacArthur's views on singleness) – The "problem" with singleness  Beth Felker Jones's book – Faithful: A Theology of Sex  Singled Minded Conference Further reading/ listening: Read the edited version of With All Due Respect's interview with Dani at Eternity – Single, not married, is the new church norm  Other Eternity articles on singleness: Four myths about singleness and 10 dumb things Christians have said about being single  Dani Treweek speaks about pastoring singles on The Pastor's Heart podcast  Dani on being single and a Christian on the Centre for Christian Living podcast  Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same onesABC TV's Old People's Home For 4 Year OldsThis heartwarming ABC documentary raises a key social issue: our treatment of older people. "This is a bit of a weeping sore for us in the West," says Michael.Megan points out that it also highlights the social isolation and lack of intergenerational contact in our society – experienced by both young and old.Cue the church: "one of the only institutions left where we do have people of all ages coming together."While the final live episode of Old People's Home For 4 Year Olds recently aired, you can watch all episodes in the series on ABC iview. Warning: box of tissues needed. (And stay tuned for Michael's suggested new series: Old People's Home For Teenagers. ABC, are you reading this?)Further reading/ viewing: ABC TV's Old People’s Home For 4 Year Olds on iview  Eternity article on Old People’s Home For 4 Year Olds   Fact check:Michael mentions a few statistics in this segment. Here's the research: 1 in 4 Australians live alone 10-40 per cent of community-dwelling older adults in developed countries experience depression, while up to half of people living in residential aged care facilities have significant depression symptoms "Older people who attend churches are happier and healthier" Join in the discussion onlinewww.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out Are family values biblical? What's more important, our nuclear family or our church family? Do we idolise marriage in the church and in society at the expense of other relationships?Megan and Michael decode the cosy phrase "family values" and look at what the Bible actually says on the topic.Mentioned in this segment:<ul><li>Book by Eli J. Finkel that outlines the history of marriage – <a href="https://elifinkel.com/allornothingmarriage" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The All-or-Nothing Marriage</a> </li></ul>Glossary:Megan and Michael sometimes like to use big words, so here's a glossary of particularly lofty terms in this segment.<ul> <li> deleterious: causing harm or damage</li> <li> raison d'etre: A French phrase meaning reason for being</li> <li> sesquipedalian: used to describe a word that's very long (OK this wasn't really mentioned in the segment but you see why it's applicable)</li> </ul>Be our guest Dani Treweek and a theology of singleness Our guest this episode, Dani Treweek, has spent a lot of time thinking about singleness and the church – as a single Christian woman, a minister and in writing her PhD on a theological and pastoral ethic of singleness."Part of the problem with singleness is that we see it as a problem because it's not marriage," she explains.Michael and Megan chat with Dani about the biblical view of singleness and marriage, and how the church can better relate to singles.Mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li>Dani Treweek's blog on Sydney Anglicans website (addressing John MacArthur's views on singleness) – <a href="https://sydneyanglicans.net/blogs/the-problem-with-singleness" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The "problem" with singleness</a> </li> <li>Beth Felker Jones's book – <a href="https://www.koorong.com/product/faithful-a-theology-of-sex-zondervans-ordinary-theology_9780310518273?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.koorong.com%2Fproduct%2Fpracticing-christian-doctrine-an-introduction-to-thinking-and_9780801049330" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Faithful: A Theology of Sex</a> </li> <li><a href="https://www.singlemindedconference.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Singled Minded Conference</a></li> </ul>Further reading/ listening:<ul> <li>Read the edited version of With All Due Respect's interview with Dani at Eternity – <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Single, not married, is the new church norm</a> </li> <li>Other Eternity articles on singleness: <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/four-myths-about-singleness/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Four myths about singleness</a> and <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/10-dumb-things-christians-have-said-about-being-single/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">10 dumb things Christians have said about being single</a> </li> <li>Dani Treweek speaks about pastoring singles on <a href="https://www.thepastorsheart.net/podcast/2018/9/25/pastoring-singles-with-dani-treweek" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Pastor's Heart podcast</a> </li> <li>Dani on being single and a Christian on the <a href="https://ccl.moore.edu.au/resources/podcast-episode-019/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Centre for Christian Living podcast</a> </li> </ul>Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones ABC TV's Old People's Home For 4 Year Olds This heartwarming ABC documentary raises a key social issue: our treatment of older people. "This is a bit of a weeping sore for us in the West," says Michael.Megan points out that it also highlights the social isolation and lack of intergenerational contact in our society – experienced by both young and old.Cue the church: "one of the only institutions left where we do have people of all ages coming together."While the final live episode of Old People's Home For 4 Year Olds recently aired, you can watch all episodes in the series on <a href="https://iview.abc.net.au/show/old-people-s-home-for-4-year-olds" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ABC iview</a>. Warning: box of tissues needed. (And stay tuned for Michael's suggested new series: Old People's Home For Teenagers. ABC, are you reading this?)Further reading/ viewing:<ul> <li>ABC TV's <a href="https://iview.abc.net.au/show/old-people-s-home-for-4-year-olds" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Old People’s Home For 4 Year Olds</a> on iview</li> <li> Eternity article on <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/old-folks-and-kids-tv-show-reminds-us-what-matters/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Old People’s Home For 4 Year Olds</a> </li> </ul>Fact check:Michael mentions a few statistics in this segment. Here's the research:<ul> <li><a href="https://aifs.gov.au/publications/archived/3351" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">1 in 4 Australians live alone</a></li> <li><a href="https://www.nari.net.au/files/files/documents/position_paper_mental_health_-_formatted.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">10-40 per cent of community-dwelling older adults in developed countries experience depression, while up to half of people living in residential aged care facilities have significant depression symptoms</a></li> <li>"<a href="https://www.pewforum.org/2019/01/31/religions-relationship-to-happiness-civic-engagement-and-health-around-the-world/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Older people who attend churches are happier and healthier</a>"</li> </ul> Join in the discussion online <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/ </a>

Which is more important: your family or church family?

For Argument's SakeMichael wrote a response to an article by Stephen McAlpine, an evangelical pastor and blogger in Western Australia, on apologetics, which argued that the era of nice apologetics is over.What is apologetics? It's nothing to do with saying sorry but it's giving a defence of the Christian message in the public square. Michael and Megan discuss Stephen's contention that artful persuasion doesn't work because it's perceived as a mask for power.The Discomfort ZoneMichael persuaded Megan to read God is Good For You by The Australian's Greg Sheridan (Read Greg's profile here).Megan wouldn't have kept going after the first chapter's polemic on the dire state of Christianity if she didn't have to, but in the middle of the book she found some riches she really enjoyed. Michael likes Greg's defence of Christianity as intellectually respectable but both feel that Greg glosses over the real problems that have afflicted the church.Marg &amp; Dave For The Love of God, a documentary by the Centre For Public Christianity, by contrast, is very honest about the stuff that the church has done badly historically. Megan says it answers a lot of the things she had problems with in Greg Sheridan's book but she has a quibble about the film's coverage of women ...

For Argument's Sake Michael <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/opinion/is-the-age-of-apologetics-over/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">wrote a response</a> to an <a href="https://stephenmcalpine.com/the-age-of-apologetics-is-over/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">article by Stephen McAlpine</a>, an evangelical pastor and blogger in Western Australia, on apologetics, which argued that the era of nice apologetics is over.What is apologetics? It's nothing to do with saying sorry but it's giving a defence of the Christian message in the public square. Michael and Megan discuss Stephen's contention that artful persuasion doesn't work because it's perceived as a mask for power.The Discomfort Zone Michael persuaded Megan to read <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/god-is-good-for-you-a-defence-of/9781760632601.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">God is Good For You</a> by The Australian's Greg Sheridan (Read Greg's <a href="https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/Greg%20Sheridan" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">profile here</a>). Megan wouldn't have kept going after the first chapter's polemic on the dire state of Christianity if she didn't have to, but in the middle of the book she found some riches she really enjoyed. Michael likes Greg's defence of Christianity as intellectually respectable but both feel that Greg glosses over the real problems that have afflicted the church.Marg &amp; Dave  <a href="https://vimeo.com/ondemand/fortheloveofgod" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">For The Love of God</a>, a documentary by the Centre For Public Christianity, by contrast, is very honest about the stuff that the church has done badly historically. Megan says it answers a lot of the things she had problems with in Greg Sheridan's book but she has a quibble about the film's coverage of women ...

Episode 4: Apologetics

In For Argument's Sake, Megan and Michael argue over the validity of a new statement delivered from the US called The Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel, which suggests social justice movements are leading people away from Jesus. It's a topic Megan is particularly passionate about: she's doing her doctoral research on it, in fact.The pair discuss the huge controversy over the statement, including amongst people you'd think would have agreed. So ... is social justice the gospel? And if it's not, how do you distinguish the two? Tune in to hear the arguments.Here are a few other commentators that Megan and Michael refer to in this discussion:Al Mohler. Ryan Burton King. Russell Moore. Tim Keller. John Stott.In the Discomfort Zone, Megan suggests reading Lisa Sharon Harper's book, The Very Good Gospel, which Megan says gives a very 'social justice flavour' to the gospel. Then, in Marg and Dave, Michael and Megan listen to Hozier, and talk about the lyrics that can get under your skin, the visceral anger the artist has against the Catholic church and what Hozier, and the Bible, have to say about sex.

In For Argument's Sake, Megan and Michael argue over the validity of a new statement delivered from the US called <a href="https://statementonsocialjustice.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel,</a> which suggests social justice movements are leading people away from Jesus. It's a topic Megan is particularly passionate about: she's doing her doctoral research on it, in fact.The pair discuss the huge controversy over the statement, including amongst people you'd think would have agreed. So ... is social justice the gospel? And if it's not, how do you distinguish the two? Tune in to hear the arguments.Here are a few other commentators that Megan and Michael refer to in this discussion:<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ_KCoBMH44" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Al Mohler</a>. <a href="http://ryanburtonking.blogspot.com/2018/09/why-i-cannot-and-will-not-sign-social.html?view=classic" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Ryan Burton King</a>. <a href="https://www.russellmoore.com/2018/09/07/the-gospel-and-social-injustice-part-1/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Russell Moore</a>. <a href="http://qideas.org/videos/the-both-and-of-the-gospel-1/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Tim Keller</a>. <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/christian-mission-in-the-modern-world-john-stott/9780830834112.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">John Stott</a>.In the Discomfort Zone, Megan suggests reading Lisa Sharon Harper's book, <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/the-very-good-gospel-how-everything-wrong-can/9781601428585.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Very Good Gospel</a>, which Megan says gives a very 'social justice flavour' to the gospel. Then, in Marg and Dave, Michael and Megan listen to <a href="https://open.spotify.com/artist/2FXC3k01G6Gw61bmprjgqS?si=JFZClgD8SeeEw96ohFPskQ" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Hozier</a>, and talk about the lyrics that can get under your skin, the visceral anger the artist has against the Catholic church and what Hozier, and the Bible, have to say about sex.

Episode 3: Social justice and the gospel

Can you both love the church and think it sucks at the same time? Well, it's probably what Jesus thinks, says Michael. So we think yes, it's possible!This topic, says Megan, is inspired by the With All Due Respect Facebook group and members (if you'd like to join, click here). In a thread where members introduce themselves, Michael and Megan realised there were a lot of people who've been really hurt by the church.Michael suggests reading Paul's letters to the Corinthians in the New Testament, where Paul calls the Corinthians 'saints' and yet is pretty scathing of some of their behaviour. In the Bible, there is never a perfect church. It's about the people of God living out their relationship with God as sinners. That doesn't mean we're happy with that, but it does tell us there's a normality about it - tragic as that is.Megan points to a movement called "Ex-vangelicals", a reaction against the church mainly in the United States, after evangelicals got tied up in support of Donald Trump. There are also plenty of memoirs about those exploring their faith and 'coming out' of conservatism. See Rachel Held Evans and Sarah Bessey, as examples.Megan and Michael discuss the cultural stereotype that has arisen around the word 'evangelicals' and whether a similar movement of ex-vangelicals might be seen in Australia. As an evangelical himself, Michael is not so sure.The duo also discuss how to respond to those people who have had a bad experience of church in a local community setting versus those who take broader issue with the church as an institution. Michael encourages people to keep up their search for a good church, and not to give up on meeting with other Christians because churches can fail very badly. There can also be great healing in the local church with fellow believers, he says.And how should we deal with critiques of the church? Megan suggests that members of the church, and leaders in particular, need to be critiquing themselves as well as listening carefully to others. More on that in the Marg and Dave segment this week.Also mentioned in this segment:Lego Masters Eternity articleWhere credit's due: talking the influences that form and move usThis is a new segment, where Megan and Michael get to share things that they really like!Michael get to choose this week: Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Bonhoeffer was writing this book in the 1930s while he was in charge of a small underground seminary that had broken away from the German Christian mainstream movement because of its allegiance to Hitler. The seminary was set up on a farm and he was training pastors there, while trying to find new footing for the church."It's a very intense book. But I think it's amazing," says Michael.Megan's impression was that Bonhoeffer is writing from a place of disappointment in the church, which makes it quite appropriate for this episode.There's plenty in this discussion about what good community as church really means. But also, says Michael, he appreciated what Bonhoeffer says about solitude. While we do need our alone time with God, that's part of being in community.Our relationship with God is something we share with each other, says Megan.What is some advice on returning to church for someone who hasn't been to church for a while? Megan suggests asking whether there is someone in their lives who they think, 'Wow, I'd love to have that person in a Christian community.' That might be a good place to start. Connect with them first.Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones. It's cartoon time! Megan and Michael take a look at The Naked Pastor cartoons. Michael is less familiar with them than Megan, who says there is a lot of take up of these cartoons by people who are feeling dissatisfied with church.The artist was a pastor who has moved out of pastoring and it's not clear where he stands on Christianity."I help people lose their faith without losing their minds," the artist says.The cartoons themselves is pretty much all critique, which Megan finds amusing often but Michael isn't sold.Here are some of the cartoons talked about in this segment:https://nakedpastor.com/warning-questions-will-lead-you-astray/https://nakedpastor.com/becoming-my-most-popular-women-and-the-resurrection/

Can you both love the church and think it sucks at the same time? Well, it's probably what Jesus thinks, says Michael. So we think yes, it's possible!This topic, says Megan, is inspired by the With All Due Respect Facebook group and members (if you'd like to join, click here). In a thread where members introduce themselves, Michael and Megan realised there were a lot of people who've been really hurt by the church.Michael suggests reading Paul's letters to the Corinthians in the New Testament, where Paul calls the Corinthians 'saints' and yet is pretty scathing of some of their behaviour. In the Bible, there is never a perfect church. It's about the people of God living out their relationship with God as sinners. That doesn't mean we're happy with that, but it does tell us there's a normality about it - tragic as that is.Megan points to a movement called "<a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/03/evangelical-christians-religion-politics-trump" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Ex-vangelicals</a>", a reaction against the church mainly in the United States, after evangelicals got tied up in support of Donald Trump. There are also plenty of memoirs about those exploring their faith and 'coming out' of conservatism. See Rachel Held Evans and Sarah Bessey, as examples.Megan and Michael discuss the cultural stereotype that has arisen around the word 'evangelicals' and whether a similar movement of ex-vangelicals might be seen in Australia. As an evangelical himself, Michael is not so sure.The duo also discuss how to respond to those people who have had a bad experience of church in a local community setting versus those who take broader issue with the church as an institution. Michael encourages people to keep up their search for a good church, and not to give up on meeting with other Christians because churches can fail very badly. There can also be great healing in the local church with fellow believers, he says.And how should we deal with critiques of the church? Megan suggests that members of the church, and leaders in particular, need to be critiquing themselves as well as listening carefully to others. More on that in the Marg and Dave segment this week.Also mentioned in this segment:<ul><li><a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/good-news/contestant-says-life-of-ministry-and-service-tops-being-a-lego-master/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lego Masters Eternity article</a></li></ul>Where credit's due: talking the influences that form and move us This is a new segment, where Megan and Michael get to share things that they really like!Michael get to choose this week:<a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/life-together-dietrich-bonhoeffer/0060608528.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.  </a> Bonhoeffer was writing this book in the 1930s while he was in charge of a small underground seminary that had broken away from the German Christian mainstream movement because of its allegiance to Hitler. The seminary was set up on a farm and he was training pastors there, while trying to find new footing for the church."It's a very intense book. But I think it's amazing," says Michael.Megan's impression was that Bonhoeffer is writing from a place of disappointment in the church, which makes it quite appropriate for this episode.There's plenty in this discussion about what good community as church really means. But also, says Michael, he appreciated what Bonhoeffer says about solitude. While we do need our alone time with God, that's part of being in community.Our relationship with God is something we share with each other, says Megan.What is some advice on returning to church for someone who hasn't been to church for a while?  Megan suggests asking whether there is someone in their lives who they think, 'Wow, I'd love to have that person in a Christian community.' That might be a good place to start. Connect with them first.Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.  It's cartoon time! Megan and Michael take a look at <a href="https://nakedpastor.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Naked Pastor</a> cartoons. Michael is less familiar with them than Megan, who says there is a lot of take up of these cartoons by people who are feeling dissatisfied with church.The artist was a pastor who has moved out of pastoring and it's not clear where he stands on Christianity."I help people lose their faith without losing their minds," the artist says.The cartoons themselves is pretty much all critique, which Megan finds amusing often but Michael isn't sold.Here are some of the cartoons talked about in this segment:<a href="https://nakedpastor.com/warning-questions-will-lead-you-astray/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://nakedpastor.com/warning-questions-will-lead-you-astray/</a><a href="https://nakedpastor.com/becoming-my-most-popular-women-and-the-resurrection/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://nakedpastor.com/becoming-my-most-popular-women-and-the-resurrection/</a>

Can you love the church and think it sucks, too? 

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out Can we (Christians, that is!) do politics without being partisan? There's been a storm since Australians discovered the outcome of the Federal election, particularly within the Aussie Christian community. Some Christians seem unable to believe that there are others of their faith who would have voted the opposite of them. And because the outcome of the election was so unexpected, there was a lot of "unvarnished" gut reactions on social media.Megan and Michael discuss whether it's possible to remain a 'Christian community' when we are so tribalised. And what part should prayer play when it comes to praying for our leaders, especially for those with whom we strongly disagree?Both Megan and Michael agree that Christians don't need to be apolitical. We are told to have a drive for justice. But how can we do it better? Megan suggests acknowledging real emotions on either side is a good place to start. The pair candidly share how they personally voted, discussing the reasons for their choice and try to model how to respectfully disagree on political priorities while holding to core truths of the gospel.Also mentioned in this segment:  Donald Trump turning up unannounced at a Virginian church in the middle of a service for prayer.  Unapologetic by Francis Spufford Discomfort Zone: ever think someone might think differently if they step outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that.Michael gets to choose the book this episode and it is ... The Second Mountain: The quest for the moral life by David Brooks. Brooks is a Canadian-born American centre-right political and cultural commentator who writes for The New York Times.Everybody tells you to live for a cause larger than yourself, but how exactly do you do it? Brooks explores what it takes to lead a meaningful life in a self-centred world.Megan says she certainly wouldn't have read the book had Michael not suggested it. But she really liked it. "It's like the book that I would have written if I was a conservative dude," she says jokingly. But Brooks' emphasis on joy and community also captured her attention.Michael says he sees this book as one that he can use in pastoring people, especially those in their 40s who are looking to disentangle from their individualism and look to something greater.In his book, Brooks argues that such individualism makes people so disconnected that they flock to their "tribe", and contributes to the 'us' and 'them' issues we have in politics.Read more on Christian discussion of David Brook's book: On The Gospel Coalition website: David Brooks on his journey as a wandering Jew and a confused Christian    From Christianity Today: How David Brooks meandered toward God   Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones. We're looking at Derry Girls this week. You can watch the first season on Netflix.Derry Girls is a comedy set in Derry, Northern Ireland. It’s about the lives of ordinary people living under the spectre of the Troubles in the early nineties, all seen through the eyes of 16 year old Erin and her friends. Writer Lisa McGee bases the story on her own experiences of growing up in Northern Ireland as a normal sixteen year old girl amidst civil conflict.How does a community with those deep divisions go about living in it?

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out  Can we (Christians, that is!) do politics without being partisan? There's been a storm since Australians discovered the outcome of the Federal election, particularly within the Aussie Christian community. Some Christians seem unable to believe that there are others of their faith who would have voted the opposite of them. And because the outcome of the election was so unexpected, there was a lot of "unvarnished" gut reactions on social media.Megan and Michael discuss whether it's possible to remain a 'Christian community' when we are so tribalised. And what part should prayer play when it comes to praying for our leaders, especially for those with whom we strongly disagree?Both Megan and Michael agree that Christians don't need to be apolitical. We are told to have a drive for justice. But how can we do it better? Megan suggests acknowledging real emotions on either side is a good place to start. The pair candidly share how they personally voted, discussing the reasons for their choice and try to model how to respectfully disagree on political priorities while holding to core truths of the gospel.Also mentioned in this segment:<ul> <li> <a href="https://www.eternitynews.com.au/world/the-president-of-the-united-states-walks-into-your-church-and-asks-for-prayer-now-what/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Donald Trump turning up unannounced</a> at a Virginian church in the middle of a service for prayer.</li> <li> <a href="https://www.koorong.com/search/product/unapologetic-why-despite-everything-christianity-can-still-make/9780571225224.jhtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Unapologetic</a> by Francis Spufford</li> </ul>Discomfort Zone: ever think someone might think differently if they step outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that. Michael gets to choose the book this episode and it is ... <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Second-Mountain-David-Brooks/dp/0812993268" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Second Mountain: The quest for the moral life </a>by David Brooks. Brooks is a Canadian-born American centre-right political and cultural commentator who writes for The New York Times.Everybody tells you to live for a cause larger than yourself, but how exactly do you do it? Brooks explores what it takes to lead a meaningful life in a self-centred world.Megan says she certainly wouldn't have read the book had Michael not suggested it. But she really liked it. "It's like the book that I would have written if I was a conservative dude," she says jokingly. But Brooks' emphasis on joy and community also captured her attention.Michael says he sees this book as one that he can use in pastoring people, especially those in their 40s who are looking to disentangle from their individualism and look to something greater.In his book, Brooks argues that such individualism makes people so disconnected that they flock to their "tribe", and contributes to the 'us' and 'them' issues we have in politics.Read more on Christian discussion of David Brook's book:<ul> <li>On The Gospel Coalition website: <a href="https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/tgc-podcast/david-brooks-journey-wandering-jew-confused-christian/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">David Brooks on his journey as a wandering Jew and a confused Christian  </a> </li> <li>From Christianity Today: <a href="https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/may-web-only/david-brooks-second-mountain-quest-moral-life.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">How David Brooks meandered toward God </a> </li> </ul>Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.  We're looking at<a href="https://www.netflix.com/au/title/80238565" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> Derry Girls </a>this week. You can watch the first season on Netflix.Derry Girls is a comedy set in Derry, Northern Ireland. It’s about the lives of ordinary people living under the spectre of the Troubles in the early nineties, all seen through the eyes of 16 year old Erin and her friends. Writer Lisa McGee bases the story on her own experiences of growing up in Northern Ireland as a normal sixteen year old girl amidst civil conflict.How does a community with those deep divisions go about living in it?

Competing tribes and troubled community

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