The 2024 Republican presidential primary is officially underway, and Donald Trump is dominating the field. But this is a very different contest than it was in 2016. Back then, the Republican Party was the party of foreign policy interventionism, free trade and cutting entitlements, and Trump was the insurgent outsider unafraid to buck the consensus. Today, Trump and his views have become the consensus.The primary, then, raises some important questions: How has Donald Trump changed the Republican Party over the past eight years? Is Trumpism an actual set of policy views or just a political aesthetic? And if Trump does become the nominee again, where does the party go from here?Ben Domenech is a longtime conservative writer who served as a speechwriter in George W. Bush’s administration and co-founded several right-leaning outlets, including RedState and The Federalist. He’s currently a Fox News contributor, an editor at large at The Spectator and the author of the newsletter The Transom. From these different perches, he has closely traced the various ways the Republican Party has and, crucially, has not changed over the past decade.This conversation explores whether Donald Trump really did break open a G.O.P. policy consensus in 2016, the legacy of what Domenech calls “boomer Republicanism,” how to reconcile Trump’s continued dominance with his surprisingly poor electoral record, the rise of “Barstool conservatism” and other new cultural strands on the right, whether conservatives actually want “National Review conservatism policy” with a “Breitbart conservatism attitude,” what Domenech thinks a G.O.P. candidate would need to do to outperform Trump and more.This episode contains strong language.This episode was hosted by Jane Coaston, a staff writer for Times Opinion. Previously, she hosted “The Argument,” a New York Times Opinion podcast. Before that she was the senior politics reporter at Vox, with a focus on conservatism and the G.O.P.Mentioned:The Revolution with Steve KornackiBook Recommendations:The War on the West by Douglas MurrayThe Mandibles by Lionel ShriverRunning the Light by Sam TallentThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

The 2024 Republican presidential primary is officially underway, and Donald Trump is dominating the field. But this is a very different contest than it was in 2016. Back then, the Republican Party was the party of foreign policy interventionism, free trade and cutting entitlements, and Trump was the insurgent outsider unafraid to buck the consensus. Today, Trump and his views have become the consensus.The primary, then, raises some important questions: How has Donald Trump changed the Republican Party over the past eight years? Is Trumpism an actual set of policy views or just a political aesthetic? And if Trump does become the nominee again, where does the party go from here?Ben Domenech is a longtime conservative writer who served as a speechwriter in George W. Bush’s administration and co-founded several right-leaning outlets, including RedState and The Federalist. He’s currently a Fox News contributor, an editor at large at The Spectator and the author of the newsletter The Transom. From these different perches, he has closely traced the various ways the Republican Party has and, crucially, has not changed over the past decade.This conversation explores whether Donald Trump really did break open a G.O.P. policy consensus in 2016, the legacy of what Domenech calls “boomer Republicanism,” how to reconcile Trump’s continued dominance with his surprisingly poor electoral record, the rise of “Barstool conservatism” and other new cultural strands on the right, whether conservatives actually want “National Review conservatism policy” with a “Breitbart conservatism attitude,” what Domenech thinks a G.O.P. candidate would need to do to outperform Trump and more.This episode contains strong language.This episode was hosted by Jane Coaston, a staff writer for Times Opinion. Previously, she hosted “The Argument,” a New York Times Opinion podcast. Before that she was the senior politics reporter at Vox, with a focus on conservatism and the G.O.P.Mentioned:<a href="https://www.msnbc.com/the-revolution-with-steve-kornacki" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Revolution with Steve Kornacki</a>Book Recommendations:<a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-war-on-the-west-douglas-murray?variant=39664581705762" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The War on the West</a> by Douglas Murray<a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-mandibles-lionel-shriver?variant=32205656129570" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Mandibles</a> by Lionel Shriver<a href="https://www.samtallent.com/store/p/signed-copy-of-running-the-light" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Running the Light</a> by Sam TallentThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

A Conservative on How His Party Has Changed Since 2016

Martin Wolf

The world economy has experienced many shocks over the past few years: A pandemic. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Skyrocketing inflation. These are the stories that have dominated headlines — and for good reason.But they’ve also overshadowed a set of deeper, more fundamental shifts — the rise of China as an economic superpower, the fracturing of trade relations, the realities of the climate crisis — that are transforming the global economic order and prompting ambitious policy responses from leaders across the world.Martin Wolf is the chief economics commentator at The Financial Times, a former senior economist at the World Bank and the author, most recently, of “The Crisis of Democratic Capitalism. Across his writings, Wolf has developed some of the clearest frameworks for thinking about how the global economy is changing and some of the sharpest critiques of how policymakers are responding to those changes.We discuss how China’s meteoric economic rise has shaken the foundations of the global economy, why globalization has remained far more resilient than so many predicted, why Wolf is skeptical that President Biden’s industrial policy agenda will succeed, the debate between “onshoring” and “friendshoring” that is dividing the Democratic Party, why a recession in the United States is looking far less likely than it did six months ago, the virtues and vices of Biden’s “foreign policy for the middle class,” why China’s recent economic troubles could signal a more foundational decline, why the U.S. economy has remained so much more stronger than most economists anticipated, and more.Mentioned:National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan’s speech“The I.R.A. Passed a Year Ago. Here’s a Progress Check” by The Ezra Klein Show, with Robinson Meyer“The China Shock: Learning from Labor Market Adjustment to Large Changes in Trade” by David H. Autor, David Dorn and Gordon H. Hanson“Is the Global Economy Deglobalizing?” by Pinelopi Goldberg and Tristan Reed“Climate Progress and the 117th Congress: The Impacts of the Inflation Reduction Act and Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act” by REPEAT ProjectBook Recommendations:The Narrow Corridor by Daron Acemoglu and James A. RobinsonPower and Progress by Daron Acemoglu and Simon JohnsonThe Rise and Fall of American Growth by Robert J. GordonThis episode is guest-hosted by Rogé Karma, the senior editor for “The Ezra Klein Show.” Rogé has been with the show since July 2019, when it was based at Vox. He works closely with Ezra on everything related to the show, from editing to interview prep to guest selection. At Vox, he also wrote and conducted interviews on topics ranging from policing and racial justice to democracy reform and the coronavirus pandemic.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Kristin Lin. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Jeff Geld and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Efim Shapiro.

The world economy has experienced many shocks over the past few years: A pandemic. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Skyrocketing inflation. These are the stories that have dominated headlines — and for good reason.But they’ve also overshadowed a set of deeper, more fundamental shifts — the rise of China as an economic superpower, the fracturing of trade relations, the realities of the climate crisis — that are transforming the global economic order and prompting ambitious policy responses from leaders across the world.Martin Wolf is the chief economics commentator at The Financial Times, a former senior economist at the World Bank and the author, most recently, of “<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/554951/the-crisis-of-democratic-capitalism-by-martin-wolf/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Crisis of Democratic Capitalism</a>. Across his writings, Wolf has developed some of the clearest frameworks for thinking about how the global economy is changing and some of the sharpest critiques of how policymakers are responding to those changes.We discuss how China’s meteoric economic rise has shaken the foundations of the global economy, why globalization has remained far more resilient than so many predicted, why Wolf is skeptical that President Biden’s industrial policy agenda will succeed, the debate between “onshoring” and “friendshoring” that is dividing the Democratic Party, why a recession in the United States is looking far less likely than it did six months ago, the virtues and vices of Biden’s “foreign policy for the middle class,” why China’s recent economic troubles could signal a more foundational decline, why the U.S. economy has remained so much more stronger than most economists anticipated, and more.Mentioned:<a href="https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/04/27/remarks-by-national-security-advisor-jake-sullivan-on-renewing-american-economic-leadership-at-the-brookings-institution/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan’s speech</a>“<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/07/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-robinson-meyer.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The I.R.A. Passed a Year Ago. Here’s a Progress Check</a>” by The Ezra Klein Show, with Robinson Meyer“<a href="https://www.nber.org/papers/w21906" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The China Shock: Learning from Labor Market Adjustment to Large Changes in Trade</a>” by David H. Autor, David Dorn and Gordon H. Hanson“<a href="https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/BPEA_Spring2023_Goldberg-Reed_unembargoed.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Is the Global Economy Deglobalizing?</a>” by Pinelopi Goldberg and Tristan Reed“<a href="https://repeatproject.org/docs/REPEAT_Climate_Progress_and_the_117th_Congress.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Climate Progress and the 117th Congress: The Impacts of the Inflation Reduction Act and Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act</a>” by REPEAT ProjectBook Recommendations:<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/555400/the-narrow-corridor-by-daron-acemoglu-and-james-a-robinson/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Narrow Corridor</a> by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson<a href="https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/daron-acemoglu/power-and-progress/9781541702530/?lens=publicaffairs" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Power and Progress</a> by Daron Acemoglu and Simon Johnson<a href="https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691175805/the-rise-and-fall-of-american-growth" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Rise and Fall of American Growt</a>h by Robert J. GordonThis episode is guest-hosted by Rogé Karma, the senior editor for “The Ezra Klein Show.” Rogé has been with the show since July 2019, when it was based at Vox. He works closely with Ezra on everything related to the show, from editing to interview prep to guest selection. At Vox, he also wrote and conducted interviews on topics ranging from policing and racial justice to democracy reform and the coronavirus pandemic.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Kristin Lin. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Jeff Geld and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Efim Shapiro.

How Martin Wolf Understands This Global Economic Moment

As I head into a three-month book leave, I wanted to take some time to address a wide array of listeners’ questions. My column editor, Aaron Retica, joins me for a conversation that ranges from the content of my forthcoming book and President Biden’s climate record to the simulation hypothesis and legalized psychedelic therapy.We also discuss what the I-95 collapse — and remarkably quick repairs — tell us about government’s ability to build quickly, the problems with everything-bagel liberalism, what it would mean to treat climate change like the emergency that it is, why I dislike analogies between Biden and Franklin Roosevelt, why health care reform has receded from the center of American political debate, whether liberals are being too soft on Hunter Biden, why I am staunchly against term limits for Congress, what kinds of work are most undervalued in American society, why I’ve become less pessimistic about artificial intelligence disinformation, why I left Twitter but have been enjoying Threads, the challenges of keeping a Sabbath practice and more.This episode contains strong language.Note: Starting next week, “The Ezra Klein Show” will be releasing episodes only once per week, every Tuesday, until Ezra returns from his book leave in early November. These episodes will be hosted by a range of guest hosts.Mentioned:“The Problem With Everything-Bagel Liberalism” by Ezra Klein“The Book I Wish Every Policymaker Would Read” by The Ezra Klein Show, with Jennifer Pahlka“Two Theories of What I’m Getting Wrong” by Ezra Klein“The Greens’ Dilemma” by J. B. Ruhl and James E. Salzman“Not Everyone Should Have a Say” by Jerusalem DemsasWe’ve Got You Covered by Liran Einav and Amy Finkelstein“This Is Your Brain on ‘Deep Reading.’ It’s Pretty Magnificent.” by The Ezra Klein Show, with Maryanne Wolf“Elon Musk Got Twitter Because He Gets Twitter” by Ezra Klein“Sabbath and the Art of Rest” by The Ezra Klein Show, with Judith ShulevitzMusic Recommendations:“Orange” by Caroline Shaw and Attacca QuartetFred again..: Tiny Desk Concert on NPR Music“USB” by Fred again..“Midas” by Maribou StateThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

As I head into a three-month book leave, I wanted to take some time to address a wide array of listeners’ questions. My column editor, Aaron Retica, joins me for a conversation that ranges from the content of my forthcoming book and President Biden’s climate record to the simulation hypothesis and legalized psychedelic therapy.We also discuss what the I-95 collapse — and remarkably quick repairs — tell us about government’s ability to build quickly, the problems with everything-bagel liberalism, what it would mean to treat climate change like the emergency that it is, why I dislike analogies between Biden and Franklin Roosevelt, why health care reform has receded from the center of American political debate, whether liberals are being too soft on Hunter Biden, why I am staunchly against term limits for Congress, what kinds of work are most undervalued in American society, why I’ve become less pessimistic about artificial intelligence disinformation, why I left Twitter but have been enjoying Threads, the challenges of keeping a Sabbath practice and more.This episode contains strong language.Note: Starting next week, “The Ezra Klein Show” will be releasing episodes only once per week, every Tuesday, until Ezra returns from his book leave in early November. These episodes will be hosted by a range of guest hosts.Mentioned:“<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/opinion/democrats-liberalism.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Problem With Everything-Bagel Liberalism</a>” by Ezra Klein“<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/06/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-jennifer-pahlka.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Book I Wish Every Policymaker Would Read</a>” by The Ezra Klein Show, with Jennifer Pahlka“<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/16/opinion/climate-change-biden-building-investment.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Two Theories of What I’m Getting Wrong</a>” by Ezra Klein“<a href="https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4443474" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Greens’ Dilemma</a>” by J. B. Ruhl and James E. Salzman“<a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/environmentalists-nimby-permitting-reform-nepa/671775/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Not Everyone Should Have a Say</a>” by Jerusalem Demsas<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/690632/weve-got-you-covered-by-liran-einav-and-amy-finkelstein/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">We’ve Got You Covered</a> by Liran Einav and Amy Finkelstein“<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/22/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-maryanne-wolf.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">This Is Your Brain on ‘Deep Reading.’ It’s Pretty Magnificent.</a>” by The Ezra Klein Show, with Maryanne Wolf“<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/opinion/elon-musk-twitter.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Elon Musk Got Twitter Because He Gets Twitter</a>” by Ezra Klein“<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/03/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-judith-shulevitz.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Sabbath and the Art of Rest</a>” by The Ezra Klein Show, with Judith ShulevitzMusic Recommendations:“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/album/5d0tz2baP5WGhMzZvONcgU?si=VY66LpGxTCezLdDWRfVSaQ" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Orange</a>” by Caroline Shaw and Attacca Quartet<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iQmPv_dTI0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Fred again..: Tiny Desk Concert</a> on NPR Music“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/album/476NL3NiMsw9ptdw9j7oYd?si=Wck97uUESRGQAXY8wKWVAg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">USB</a>” by Fred again..“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/track/6VNooTY5w9A9wg1YUsEbKB?si=43dd85e27fca4159" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Midas</a>” by Maribou StateThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

Biden, Psychedelics, Twitter, My New Book — and So Much More

Barbara Kingsolver

When Barbara Kingsolver set out to write her latest novel, “Demon Copperhead,” she was already considered one of the most accomplished writers of our time. She had won awards including the Women’s Prize for Fiction and a National Humanities Medal, and had a track record of best-selling books, including “The Poisonwood Bible” and “Unsheltered.” But she felt there was one giant stone left unturned: to write “the great Appalachian novel.”Kingsolver grew up in rural Kentucky and lives in southwestern Virginia. Appalachia is her home. So when national coverage of her region started increasing in the years since 2016, with a focus on the region’s problems — like deep rural poverty and the opioid epidemic — she felt something was missing. She wanted to write a novel about Appalachia from the inside, as someone who is a part of it and who grew up in it. “The story I wanted to tell was not about the big guys, but about the little people,” she told me.And if major awards are any indication, Kingsolver succeeded. “Demon Copperhead” won the 2023 Pulitzer Prize for Fiction and has been widely acclaimed for the nuanced portrait it paints of life in rural America. So I asked Kingsolver to talk about her background and the book, and to explore the often chasmic dissonance between how many of us city-dwellers think about Appalachia and the reality of living there.Mentioned:Shiloh and Other Stories by Bobbie Ann MasonBook Recommendations:Landings by Arwen DonahueRaising Lazarus by Beth MacyPod by Laline PaullThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Jeff Geld, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

When Barbara Kingsolver set out to write her latest novel, “<a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/demon-copperhead-barbara-kingsolver?variant=40073146204194" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Demon Copperhead</a>,” she was already considered one of the most accomplished writers of our time. She had won awards including the Women’s Prize for Fiction and a National Humanities Medal, and had a track record of best-selling books, including “<a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-poisonwood-bible-barbara-kingsolver?variant=32139395465250" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Poisonwood Bible</a>” and “<a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/unsheltered-barbara-kingsolver?variant=32207292301346" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Unsheltered</a>.” But she felt there was one giant stone left unturned: to write “the great Appalachian novel.”Kingsolver grew up in rural Kentucky and lives in southwestern Virginia. Appalachia is her home. So when national coverage of her region started increasing in the years since 2016, with a focus on the region’s problems — like deep rural poverty and the opioid epidemic — she felt something was missing. She wanted to write a novel about Appalachia from the inside, as someone who is a part of it and who grew up in it. “The story I wanted to tell was not about the big guys, but about the little people,” she told me.And if major awards are any indication, Kingsolver succeeded. “Demon Copperhead” won the 2023 Pulitzer Prize for Fiction and has been widely acclaimed for the nuanced portrait it paints of life in rural America. So I asked Kingsolver to talk about her background and the book, and to explore the often chasmic dissonance between how many of us city-dwellers think about Appalachia and the reality of living there.Mentioned:<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/108765/shiloh-and-other-stories-by-bobbie-ann-mason/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Shiloh and Other Stories</a> by Bobbie Ann MasonBook Recommendations:<a href="https://arwendonahue.com/landings/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Landings</a> by Arwen Donahue<a href="https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/beth-macy/raising-lazarus/9780316430227/?lens=little-brown" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Raising Lazarus</a> by Beth Macy<a href="https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Pod/Laline-Paull/9781639363711" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pod</a> by Laline PaullThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Jeff Geld, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Barbara Kingsolver Thinks Urban Liberals Have It All Wrong on Appalachia

California has around half of the nation’s unsheltered homeless population. The state’s homelessness crisis has become a talking point for Republicans and a warning sign for Democrats in blue cities and states across the country.Last month, the Benioff Homelessness and Housing Initiative at the University of California, San Francisco, released a landmark report about homelessness in the state, drawing from nearly 3,200 questionnaires and 365 in-depth interviews. It is the single deepest study on homelessness in America in decades. And the report is packed with findings that shed new light not only on California’s homelessness problem but also on housing affordability nationwide.Jerusalem Demsas is a staff writer at The Atlantic who has written extensively about the interlocking problems of housing affordability and homelessness in America. So I asked her on the show to walk me through the core findings of the study, what we know about the causes of homelessness, and what solutions exist to address it. We discuss the surprising process by which people end up homeless in the first place, the “scarring” effect that homelessness can have on their future prospects, the importance of thinking of homelessness as a “flow,” not a “stock,” the benefits and limitations of “housing first” approaches to end homelessness, why Republican proposals for being tougher on the homeless can make the problem worse, why neither generous social safety nets nor private equity firms are to blame for homelessness, and more.Mentioned:We're looking for a senior editor for the show. Learn more and apply here.Book Recommendations:Homelessness Is a Housing Problem by Gregg Colburn and Clayton Page AldernChildren of Time by Adrian TchaikovskyStrangers to Ourselves by Rachel AvivListen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioappThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker. The senior engineer is Jeff Geld. The senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

California has around half of the nation’s unsheltered homeless population. The state’s homelessness crisis has become a talking point for Republicans and a warning sign for Democrats in blue cities and states across the country.Last month, the Benioff Homelessness and Housing Initiative at the University of California, San Francisco, released a <a href="https://homelessness.ucsf.edu/our-impact/our-studies/california-statewide-study-people-experiencing-homelessness" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">landmark report</a> about homelessness in the state, drawing from nearly 3,200 questionnaires and 365 in-depth interviews. It is the single deepest study on homelessness in America in decades. And the report is packed with findings that shed new light not only on California’s homelessness problem but also on housing affordability nationwide.Jerusalem Demsas is a staff writer at The Atlantic who has written extensively about the interlocking problems of housing affordability and homelessness in America. So I asked her on the show to walk me through the core findings of the study, what we know about the causes of homelessness, and what solutions exist to address it. We discuss the surprising process by which people end up homeless in the first place, the “scarring” effect that homelessness can have on their future prospects, the importance of thinking of homelessness as a “flow,” not a “stock,” the benefits and limitations of “housing first” approaches to end homelessness, why Republican proposals for being tougher on the homeless can make the problem worse, why neither generous social safety nets nor private equity firms are to blame for homelessness, and more.Mentioned:We're looking for a senior editor for the show. <a href="https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/NYT/job/New-York-NY/Senior-Editor--The-Ezra-Klein-Show_REQ-014603-2" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Learn more and apply here</a>.Book Recommendations:<a href="https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520383784/homelessness-is-a-housing-problem" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homelessness Is a Housing Problem</a> by Gregg Colburn and Clayton Page Aldern<a href="https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/adrian-tchaikovsky/children-of-time/9781447273301" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of Time</a> by Adrian Tchaikovsky<a href="https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374600846/strangerstoourselves" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Strangers to Ourselves</a> by Rachel AvivListen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at <a href="http://nytimes.com/audioapp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/audioapp</a>Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker. The senior engineer is Jeff Geld. The senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

What We Learned From the Deepest Look at Homelessness in Decades

Tom Hanks

There are few actors as widely beloved as Tom Hanks. Hanks has acted in over 75 films in his 46-year career, winning the best actor Academy Award two years in a row, for “Philadelphia” and “Forrest Gump.” And more recently, he’s the author of the short story collection “Uncommon Type” and the novel “The Making of Another Major Motion Picture Masterpiece.”What is the source of Hanks’s near-universal admiration? In playing roles including Chesley Sullenberger, Mister Rogers and World War II heroes, Hanks reflects back to audiences what we could be at our very best. He’s an uncannily wise interpreter of America: what our country has been, and what it could be if we activated our potential to be kind, compassionate, even heroic toward one another.That’s just one of many topics we traverse in this truly delightful conversation. We also discuss how working on typewriters helps fuel Hanks’s creativity, why there’s such a huge global appetite for superhero stories, why America has become so cynical and how Hanks endeavors to defy that cynicism, how Hanks’s complicated family upbringing influences how he approaches his film roles, what America learned about itself — and didn’t — through Vietnam, Watergate and other historical events, how Hanks understands the complexity of heroic figures he’s played, why he views kindness as an active practice and more.Book Recommendations:Beartown by Fredrik BackmanThe Swerve by Stephen GreenblattTrust by Hernan DiazListen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioappThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Mary Marge Locker. Our senior audio engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Pat McCusker.

There are few actors as widely beloved as Tom Hanks. Hanks has acted in over 75 films in his 46-year career, winning the best actor Academy Award two years in a row, for “Philadelphia” and “Forrest Gump.” And more recently, he’s the author of the short story collection “<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/252911/uncommon-type-by-tom-hanks/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Uncommon Type</a>” and the novel “<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/599504/the-making-of-another-major-motion-picture-masterpiece-by-tom-hanks/9780525655596/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Making of Another Major Motion Picture Masterpiece</a>.”What is the source of Hanks’s near-universal admiration? In playing roles including Chesley Sullenberger, Mister Rogers and World War II heroes, Hanks reflects back to audiences what we could be at our very best. He’s an uncannily wise interpreter of America: what our country has been, and what it could be if we activated our potential to be kind, compassionate, even heroic toward one another.That’s just one of many topics we traverse in this truly delightful conversation. We also discuss how working on typewriters helps fuel Hanks’s creativity, why there’s such a huge global appetite for superhero stories, why America has become so cynical and how Hanks endeavors to defy that cynicism, how Hanks’s complicated family upbringing influences how he approaches his film roles, what America learned about itself — and didn’t — through Vietnam, Watergate and other historical events, how Hanks understands the complexity of heroic figures he’s played, why he views kindness as an active practice and more.Book Recommendations:<a href="https://www.fredrikbackmanbooks.com/books/fredrik-backman-beartown.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Beartown</a> by Fredrik Backman<a href="https://wwnorton.com/books/The-Swerve/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Swerve</a> by Stephen Greenblatt<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/678664/trust-pulitzer-prize-winner-by-hernan-diaz/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Trust</a> by Hernan DiazListen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at <a href="http://nytimes.com/audioapp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/audioapp</a>Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Mary Marge Locker. Our senior audio engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Pat McCusker.

What Tom Hanks Thinks of America

Since the release of ChatGPT, huge amounts of attention and funding have been directed toward chatbots. These A.I. systems are trained on copious amounts of human-generated data and designed to predict the next word in a given sentence. They are hilarious and eerie and at times dangerous.But what if, instead of building A.I. systems that mimic humans, we built those systems to solve some of the most vexing problems facing humanity?In 2020, Google DeepMind unveiled AlphaFold, an A.I. system that uses deep learning to solve one of the most important challenges in all of biology: the so-called protein-folding problem. The ability to predict the shape of proteins is essential for addressing numerous scientific challenges, from vaccine and drug development to curing genetic diseases. But in the 50-plus years since the protein-folding problem had been discovered, scientists had made frustratingly little progress.Enter AlphaFold. By 2022, the system had identified 200 million protein shapes, nearly all the proteins known to humans. And DeepMind is also building similar systems to accelerate efforts at nuclear fusion and has spun off Isomorphic Labs, a company developing A.I. tools for drug discovery.Demis Hassabis is the chief executive of Google DeepMind and the leading architect behind AlphaFold. So I asked him on the show to talk me through how AlphaFold actually works, the kinds of problems similar systems could solve and what an alternative pathway for A.I. development could look like.Mentioned:“The Curse of Recursion” by Ilia Shumailov, Zakhar Shumaylov, Yiren Zhao, Yarin Gal, Nicolas Papernot, Ross Anderson“DeepMind’s CEO Helped Take AI Mainstream. Now He’s Urging Caution” by Billy PerrigoBook Recommendations:The Fabric of Reality by David DeutschPermutation City by Greg EganConsider Phlebas by Iain M. BanksListen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioappThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rogé Karma. Fact checking by Michelle Harris. Fact checking by Michelle Harris with Rollin Hu. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

Since the release of ChatGPT, huge amounts of attention and funding have been directed toward chatbots. These A.I. systems are trained on copious amounts of human-generated data and designed to predict the next word in a given sentence. They are hilarious and eerie and at times dangerous.But what if, instead of building A.I. systems that mimic humans, we built those systems to solve some of the most vexing problems facing humanity?In 2020, Google DeepMind unveiled AlphaFold, an A.I. system that uses deep learning to solve one of the most important challenges in all of biology: the so-called protein-folding problem. The ability to predict the shape of proteins is essential for addressing numerous scientific challenges, from vaccine and drug development to curing genetic diseases. But in the 50-plus years since the protein-folding problem had been discovered, scientists had made frustratingly little progress.Enter AlphaFold. By 2022, the system had identified 200 million protein shapes, nearly all the proteins known to humans. And DeepMind is also building similar systems to accelerate efforts at nuclear fusion and has spun off Isomorphic Labs, a company developing A.I. tools for drug discovery.Demis Hassabis is the chief executive of Google DeepMind and the leading architect behind AlphaFold. So I asked him on the show to talk me through how AlphaFold actually works, the kinds of problems similar systems could solve and what an alternative pathway for A.I. development could look like.Mentioned:“<a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/2305.17493" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Curse of Recursion</a>” by Ilia Shumailov, Zakhar Shumaylov, Yiren Zhao, Yarin Gal, Nicolas Papernot, Ross Anderson“<a href="https://time.com/6246119/demis-hassabis-deepmind-interview/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">DeepMind’s CEO Helped Take AI Mainstream. Now He’s Urging Caution</a>” by Billy PerrigoBook Recommendations:<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/330123/the-fabric-of-reality-by-david-deutsch/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Fabric of Reality</a> by David Deutsch<a href="https://www.skyhorsepublishing.com/9781597805391/permutation-city/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Permutation City</a> by Greg Egan<a href="https://www.foliosociety.com/usa/consider-phlebas.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Consider Phlebas</a> by Iain M. BanksListen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at <a href="http://nytimes.com/audioapp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/audioapp</a>Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rogé Karma. Fact checking by Michelle Harris. Fact checking by Michelle Harris with Rollin Hu. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

A.I. Could Solve Some of Humanity’s Hardest Problems. It Already Has.

The Inflation Reduction Act was the largest piece of climate legislation ever passed in the United States, setting aside hundreds of billions of dollars for decarbonizing the economy. But the money was always just a first step. The fate of the act’s goals hinges on whether those investments can build the energy system of the future — everything from transmission lines and wind farms to electric vehicle factories and green hydrogen hubs.It’s now been almost a year since the I.R.A.’s passage. So, how’s it going? Are we on track for a decarbonized economy?Robinson Meyer is a contributing writer to Times Opinion and the founding executive editor of Heatmap, a new publication covering the ins-and-outs of decarbonization in America. We discuss why estimates of the I.R.A.’s investments vary so drastically, whether the Biden administration is being too timid in how it gives out the money, the collision between the investments we need to decarbonize and the laws intended to protect the environment, why permitting has proved to be such a debilitating obstacle, why red states are projected to attract almost double the I.R.A. investments compared to blue states (and how that could pose a thorny political problem for the Biden administration), whether the country can decarbonize while competing with China and much more.Mentioned:“Pathways to Commercial Liftoff: Clean Hydrogen” by U.S. Department of Energy“The Greens’ Dilemma: Building Tomorrow’s Climate Infrastructure Today” by J. B. Ruhl and James E. SalzmanBook Recommendations:The Ends of the World by Peter BrannenClimate Shock by Gernot Wagner and Martin L. WeitzmanShorting the Grid by Meredith AngwinListen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioappThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. The show’s production team includes Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

The Inflation Reduction Act was the largest piece of climate legislation ever passed in the United States, setting aside hundreds of billions of dollars for decarbonizing the economy. But the money was always just a first step. The fate of the act’s goals hinges on whether those investments can build the energy system of the future — everything from transmission lines and wind farms to electric vehicle factories and green hydrogen hubs.It’s now been almost a year since the I.R.A.’s passage. So, how’s it going? Are we on track for a decarbonized economy?Robinson Meyer is a contributing writer to Times Opinion and the founding executive editor of <a href="https://heatmap.news/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Heatmap</a>, a new publication covering the ins-and-outs of decarbonization in America. We discuss why estimates of the I.R.A.’s investments vary so drastically, whether the Biden administration is being too timid in how it gives out the money, the collision between the investments we need to decarbonize and the laws intended to protect the environment, why permitting has proved to be such a debilitating obstacle, why red states are projected to attract almost double the I.R.A. investments compared to blue states (and how that could pose a thorny political problem for the Biden administration), whether the country can decarbonize while competing with China and much more.Mentioned:“<a href="https://liftoff.energy.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/20230523-Pathways-to-Commercial-Liftoff-Clean-Hydrogen.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pathways to Commercial Liftoff: Clean Hydrogen</a>” by U.S. Department of Energy“<a href="https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4443474" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Greens’ Dilemma: Building Tomorrow’s Climate Infrastructure Today</a>” by J. B. Ruhl and James E. SalzmanBook Recommendations:<a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-ends-of-the-world-peter-brannen?variant=32121859801122" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Ends of the World</a> by Peter Brannen<a href="https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691159478/climate-shock" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Climate Shock</a> by Gernot Wagner and Martin L. Weitzman<a href="https://www.meredithangwin.com/books/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Shorting the Grid</a> by Meredith AngwinListen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at <a href="http://nytimes.com/audioapp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/audioapp</a>Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. The show’s production team includes Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

This Taught Me a Lot About How Decarbonization Is Really Going

It’s hard to think of a more celebrated figure of the 20th century than Martin Luther King Jr.He has a national memorial in Washington, D.C. His birthday is one of just 11 federal holidays. His words and legacy are routinely evoked by politicians of both major parties. I would go as far as to say he should be considered one of America’s founding fathers, which is one reason why I wanted to revisit this episode on Independence Day.But the paradox of King’s legacy is that while many revere him, very few actually read him. Most of us can cite a handful of his most famous quotes, but King’s actual teachings span five books, countless speeches and sermons, and years of detailed correspondence.There’s perhaps no scholar working today who studies Dr. King’s political philosophy as deeply as Brandon Terry. Terry is the John L. Loeb associate professor of social sciences at Harvard, where he specializes in Black political thought. He is the co-editor of “To Shape a New World: Essays on the Political Philosophy of Martin Luther King, Jr.,” the editor of “Fifty Years Since MLK,” and the author of numerous popular and academic articles on King’s political thought. His work is committed to rescuing the nuances of Dr. King’s philosophies and forcing a confrontation with what King actually said and believed, rather than what he’s come to represent.In this conversation, taped in January, we follow the commitment that animates much of Terry’s work: to take King seriously as a philosopher, rather than as purely a political actor. And it turns out that King understood a lot about politics that we’ve lost sight of today.We’re taping an “Ask Me Anything” episode soon. If you have a question for Ezra, send it to ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com with the subject line, “AMA.”Mentioned:“Imagining the nonviolent state” by Ezra Klein“Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence” by Martin Luther King Jr.From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime by Elizabeth Hinton“Rethinking the Problem of Alliance: Organized Labor and Black Political Life” by Brandon M. Terry and Jason LeeThe Truly Disadvantaged by William Julius WilsonBook recommendations:Where Do We Go From Here by Martin Luther King Jr.The Trumpet of Conscience by Martin Luther King Jr.The Sword and the Shield by Peniel E. JosephA More Beautiful and Terrible History by Jeanne TheoharisDark Ghettos by Tommie ShelbyThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

It’s hard to think of a more celebrated figure of the 20th century than Martin Luther King Jr.He has a national memorial in Washington, D.C. His birthday is one of just 11 federal holidays. His words and legacy are routinely evoked by politicians of both major parties. I would go as far as to say he should be considered one of America’s founding fathers, which is one reason why I wanted to revisit this episode on Independence Day.But the paradox of King’s legacy is that while many revere him, very few actually read him. Most of us can cite a handful of his most famous quotes, but King’s actual teachings span five books, countless speeches and sermons, and years of detailed correspondence.There’s perhaps no scholar working today who studies Dr. King’s political philosophy as deeply as Brandon Terry. Terry is the John L. Loeb associate professor of social sciences at Harvard, where he specializes in Black political thought. He is the co-editor of “<a href="https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674980754" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">To Shape a New World: Essays on the Political Philosophy of Martin Luther King, Jr.</a>,” the editor of “<a href="https://mitpress.mit.edu/9781946511065/fifty-years-since-mlk/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Fifty Years Since MLK</a>,” and the author of numerous popular and academic articles on King’s political thought. His work is committed to rescuing the nuances of Dr. King’s philosophies and forcing a confrontation with what King actually said and believed, rather than what he’s come to represent.In this conversation, taped in January, we follow the commitment that animates much of Terry’s work: to take King seriously as a philosopher, rather than as purely a political actor. And it turns out that King understood a lot about politics that we’ve lost sight of today.We’re taping an “Ask Me Anything” episode soon. If you have a question for Ezra, send it to <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a> with the subject line, “AMA.”Mentioned:“<a href="https://www.vox.com/2020/6/17/21279950/nonviolence-king-gandhi-protesters-rioters-george-floyd" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Imagining the nonviolent state</a>” by Ezra Klein“<a href="https://www.crmvet.org/info/mlk_viet.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence</a>” by Martin Luther King Jr.<a href="https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674979826" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime</a> by Elizabeth Hinton“<a href="https://newlaborforum.cuny.edu/2017/08/24/organized-labor-and-black-political-life/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Rethinking the Problem of Alliance: Organized Labor and Black Political Life</a>” by Brandon M. Terry and Jason Lee<a href="https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/T/bo13375722.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Truly Disadvantaged</a> by William Julius WilsonBook recommendations:<a href="https://www.uni-five.com/upload/doc/82818file.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Where Do We Go From Here</a> by Martin Luther King Jr.<a href="http://www.beacon.org/The-Trumpet-of-Conscience-P804.aspx" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Trumpet of Conscience</a> by Martin Luther King Jr.<a href="https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/peniel-e-joseph/the-sword-and-the-shield/9781541617858/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Sword and the Shield</a> by Peniel E. Joseph<a href="http://www.beacon.org/A-More-Beautiful-and-Terrible-History-P1333.aspx" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">A More Beautiful and Terrible History</a> by Jeanne Theoharis<a href="https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674984073&amp;content=reviews" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Dark Ghettos</a> by Tommie ShelbyThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

Best Of: A Revelatory Tour of Martin Luther King Jr.’s Forgotten Teachings

Last weekend, in the course of about 36 hours, Vladimir Putin faced — and then survived — one of the most serious challenges to his rule in over 20 years. An armed rebellion led by Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of a Russian mercenary group, took control of a southern military town, and then advanced toward Moscow, coming within about 125 miles of the city. Then, as suddenly as the rebellion began, it was over: Prigozhin was quickly exiled to Belarus without facing criminal charges — an outcome that shocked many Russia watchers.Why did Prigozhin stage this rebellion in the first palace? Why did Putin respond the way he did? What are the implications for the future of Putin’s rule — and the broader war in Ukraine?There are few people who understand the Putin regime as deeply as Stephen Kotkin, a pre-eminent scholar of Russian history at Stanford. We discuss Prigozhin’s complex motivations, why Putin didn’t shut down Prigozhin’s critiques before they escalated to the point of armed rebellion, how to interpret reports that members of Putin’s inner circle were aware of the rebellion plot, how Prigozhin’s march created an “unwitting referendum” that could threaten the stability of Putin’s regime, the bizarre cease-fire arranged by Belarusian president Aleksandr Lukashenko, why Putin didn’t kill or jail Prigozhin, how this series of events could impact the outcome of the war in Ukraine and more.(Note: This episode was recorded on Wednesday, June 28. It does not reflect any news developments that have emerged since.)Book Recommendations:Chagall by Jackie WullschlagerInvisible China by Scott Rozelle and Natalie HellClassified by David BernsteinListen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioappThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Engineering by Jeff Geld and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

Last weekend, in the course of about 36 hours, Vladimir Putin faced — and then survived — one of the most serious challenges to his rule in over 20 years. An armed rebellion led by Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of a Russian mercenary group, took control of a southern military town, and then advanced toward Moscow, coming within about 125 miles of the city. Then, as suddenly as the rebellion began, it was over: Prigozhin was quickly exiled to Belarus without facing criminal charges — an outcome that shocked many Russia watchers.Why did Prigozhin stage this rebellion in the first palace? Why did Putin respond the way he did? What are the implications for the future of Putin’s rule — and the broader war in Ukraine?There are few people who understand the Putin regime as deeply as Stephen Kotkin, a pre-eminent scholar of Russian history at Stanford. We discuss Prigozhin’s complex motivations, why Putin didn’t shut down Prigozhin’s critiques before they escalated to the point of armed rebellion, how to interpret reports that members of Putin’s inner circle were aware of the rebellion plot, how Prigozhin’s march created an “unwitting referendum” that could threaten the stability of Putin’s regime, the bizarre cease-fire arranged by Belarusian president Aleksandr Lukashenko, why Putin didn’t kill or jail Prigozhin, how this series of events could impact the outcome of the war in Ukraine and more.(Note: This episode was recorded on Wednesday, June 28. It does not reflect any news developments that have emerged since.)Book Recommendations:<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/194395/chagall-by-jackie-wullschlager/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Chagall</a> by Jackie Wullschlager<a href="https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo61544815.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Invisible China</a> by Scott Rozelle and Natalie Hell<a href="https://posthillpress.com/book/classified-the-untold-story-of-racial-classification-in-america" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Classified</a> by David BernsteinListen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at <a href="http://nytimes.com/audioapp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/audioapp</a>Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="http://nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Engineering by Jeff Geld and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

What’s Really Going On in Russia?

 Named a best podcast of 2021 by Time, Vulture, Esquire and The Atlantic.  Each Tuesday and Friday, Ezra Klein invites you into a conversation on something that matters. How do we address climate change if the political system fails to act? Has the logic of markets infiltrated too many aspects of our lives? What is the future of the Republican Party? What do psychedelics teach us about consciousness? What does sci-fi understand about our present that we miss? Can our food system be just to humans and animals alike? Listen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioapp

Named a best podcast of 2021 by Time, Vulture, Esquire and The Atlantic. Each Tuesday and Friday, Ezra Klein invites you into a conversation on something that matters. How do we address climate change if the political system fails to act? Has the logic of markets infiltrated too many aspects of our lives? What is the future of the Republican Party? What do psychedelics teach us about consciousness? What does sci-fi understand about our present that we miss? Can our food system be just to humans and animals alike? Listen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at <a href="http://nytimes.com/audioapp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/audioapp</a>

The Ezra Klein Show

On Jan. 28, I published a column that began like this: “I hope, in the end, that this article reads as alarmism. I hope that a year from now it’s a piece people point to as an overreaction.”Today, that column, thankfully, does look like alarmism. Cases fell, and kept falling, even in places beset by new variants. The U.S. vaccination effort accelerated. And there’s going to be vastly more vaccine supply in the coming months.Few emotions are as unnerving right now as hope. No one wants to permit themselves optimism, only to be crushed when death tolls rise. But the case for hope is strengthening. And there are important policy reasons to take that case seriously.Dr. Ashish Jha is a physician, leading health policy researcher and dean of the Brown University School of Public Health. He’s been one of the clearest and most thoughtful voices through this crisis. And he’s feeling hopeful, too. So I asked Jha on the show to guide us through these next months, to help us see what he’s seeing. Don’t get him, or me, wrong: This isn’t over. But in America, things are going to feel very, very different in 45 days, for reasons he explains. And then comes another question: How do we make sure the global end to this crisis comes soon after?A note: This episode was recorded before President Biden’s March 11 address directing states to make all adult Americans eligible to receive Covid vaccines by no later than May 1; however, the timeline Jha and I discuss here is just as ambitious and its implications are just as promising.This is one Covid discussion, finally, that is not going to leave you feeling in despair.Recommendations: "LikeWar" by P. W. Singer and Emerson T. Brooking"The Autobiography of Malcolm X" by Malcolm X and Alex Haley"The Very Hungry Caterpillar" by Eric CarleYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

On Jan. 28, I published <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/opinion/new-covid-strain.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">a column</a> that began like this: “I hope, in the end, that this article reads as alarmism. I hope that a year from now it’s a piece people point to as an overreaction.”Today, that column, thankfully, does look like alarmism. Cases fell, and kept falling, even in places beset by new variants. The U.S. vaccination effort accelerated. And there’s going to be vastly more vaccine supply in the coming months.Few emotions are as unnerving right now as hope. No one wants to permit themselves optimism, only to be crushed when death tolls rise. But the case for hope is strengthening. And there are important policy reasons to take that case seriously.Dr. Ashish Jha is a physician, leading health policy researcher and dean of the Brown University School of Public Health. He’s been one of the clearest and most thoughtful voices through this crisis. And he’s feeling hopeful, too. So I asked Jha on the show to guide us through these next months, to help us see what he’s seeing. Don’t get him, or me, wrong: This isn’t over. But in America, things are going to feel very, very different in 45 days, for reasons he explains. And then comes another question: How do we make sure the global end to this crisis comes soon after?A note: This episode was recorded before President Biden’s <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/03/11/us/joe-biden-news#in-his-prime-time-speech-biden-will-direct-states-to-make-all-americans-eligible-for-vaccine-by-may-1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">March 11 address</a> directing states to make all adult Americans eligible to receive Covid vaccines by no later than May 1; however, the timeline Jha and I discuss here is just as ambitious and its implications are just as promising.This is one Covid discussion, finally, that is not going to leave you feeling in despair.Recommendations: <a href="https://www.amazon.com/LikeWar-Weaponization-P-W-Singer/dp/1328695743" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"LikeWar"</a> by P. W. Singer and Emerson T. Brooking<a href="https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Malcolm-X/dp/0345350685" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Autobiography of Malcolm X"</a> by Malcolm X and Alex Haley<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Very-Hungry-Caterpillar-Eric-Carle/dp/0399226907" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Very Hungry Caterpillar"</a> by Eric CarleYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter <a href="https://www.twitter.com/ezraklein" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">@ezraklein</a>.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a>.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

How America’s Covid-19 Nightmare Ends

We were promised, with the internet, a productivity revolution. We were told that we’d get more done, in less time, with less stress. Instead, we got always-on communication, the dissolution of the boundaries between work and home, the feeling of constantly being behind, lackluster productivity numbers, and, to be fair, reaction GIFs. What went wrong?Cal Newport is a computer scientist at Georgetown and the author of books trying to figure that out. At the center of his work is the idea that the technologies billed as offering us more productive, happier, socially rich lives have left us more exhausted, empty and stressed out than ever. He’s doing something not enough people do: questioning whether this was all worth it.My critique of Newport’s work has always been that it focuses too much on the individual: Telling someone whose workplace communicates exclusively via Slack and email to be a “digital minimalist” is like telling someone who lives in a candy store to diet. But his new book, “A World Without Email,” is all about systems — specifically, the systems that govern how we work. In it, Newport makes a radical argument: We are living through a massive, rolling failure of markets and firms to rethink work for the digital age. But that can change. We can change it.Recommendations: "Technics and Civilization" by Lewis Mumford"Five Things We Need to Know About Technological Change" by Neil Postman“A Continuous Shape” (video)"Andrew Henry's Meadow" by Doris BurnYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

We were promised, with the internet, a productivity revolution. We were told that we’d get more done, in less time, with less stress. Instead, we got always-on communication, the dissolution of the boundaries between work and home, the feeling of constantly being behind, lackluster productivity numbers, and, to be fair, reaction GIFs. What went wrong?Cal Newport is a computer scientist at Georgetown and the author of books trying to figure that out. At the center of his work is the idea that the technologies billed as offering us more productive, happier, socially rich lives have left us more exhausted, empty and stressed out than ever. He’s doing something not enough people do: questioning whether this was all worth it.My critique of Newport’s work has always been that it focuses too much on the individual: Telling someone whose workplace communicates exclusively via Slack and email to be a “digital minimalist” is like telling someone who lives in a candy store to diet. But his new book, <a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/575655/a-world-without-email-by-cal-newport/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“A World Without Email,”</a> is all about systems — specifically, the systems that govern how we work. In it, Newport makes a radical argument: We are living through a massive, rolling failure of markets and firms to rethink work for the digital age. But that can change. We can change it.Recommendations: <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Technics-Civilization-Lewis-Mumford/dp/0226550273" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Technics and Civilization"</a> by Lewis Mumford<a href="https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/postman.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Five Things We Need to Know About Technological Change"</a> by Neil Postman<a href="https://vimeo.com/216658674" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“A Continuous Shape”</a> (video)<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Andrew-Henrys-Meadow-Doris-Burn/dp/0970739923" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Andrew Henry's Meadow"</a> by Doris BurnYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter <a href="https://www.twitter.com/ezraklein" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">@ezraklein</a>.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a>.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

Stop. Breathe. We Can’t Keep Working Like This.

Zeynep Tufekci

As my colleague Ben Smith wrote in an August profile, sociologist Zeynep Tufekci has “made a habit of being right on the big things.” She saw the threat of the coronavirus early and clearly. She saw that the public health community was ignoring the evidence on masking, and raised the alarm persuasively enough that she tipped the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention toward new, lifesaving guidance. Before Tufekci was being prescient about the coronavirus, she was being prescient about disinformation online, about the way social media was changing political organizing, about what election forecasting models could actually tell us, about the rising threat of authoritarianism in America.Tufekci attributes this track record to “systems thinking,” which she believes holds the key to forming a more accurate understanding of everything from pandemics to social media to the Republican Party. So I asked Tufekci to come on a podcast for a conversation about how she thinks, and what the rest of us can learn from it. In answering those questions, we discuss why public health experts were slow to change guidance on disruptive measures like masking and travel bans, the logic of authoritarian regimes, why Asian countries so decisively outperformed Western Europe and America in containing coronavirus, why Tufekci thinks media coverage of the vaccines is too pessimistic, the crisis of American democracy, whether a more competent demagogue will succeed Donald Trump, and much more.Mentioned in this episode:  “How Zeynep Tufekci Keeps Getting the Big Things Right” by Ben Smith“Why Telling People They Don’t Need Masks Backfired” by Zeynep Tufekci“Can We Do Twice as Many Vaccinations as We Thought?” by Zeynep Tufekci and Michael Mina“America’s Next Authoritarian Will Be Much More Competent” by Zeynep TufekciRecommendations: "Groundhog Day" (movie)"Normal Accidents" by Charles Perrow"The Dispossessed" by Ursula K. Le GuinYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

As my colleague Ben Smith wrote in an August profile, sociologist Zeynep Tufekci has “made a habit of being right on the big things.” She saw the threat of the coronavirus early and clearly. She saw that the public health community was ignoring the evidence on masking, and raised the alarm persuasively enough that she tipped the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention toward new, lifesaving guidance. Before Tufekci was being prescient about the coronavirus, she was being prescient about disinformation online, about the way social media was changing political organizing, about what election forecasting models could actually tell us, about the rising threat of authoritarianism in America.Tufekci attributes this track record to “systems thinking,” which she believes holds the key to forming a more accurate understanding of everything from pandemics to social media to the Republican Party. So I asked Tufekci to come on a podcast for a conversation about how she thinks, and what the rest of us can learn from it. In answering those questions, we discuss why public health experts were slow to change guidance on disruptive measures like masking and travel bans, the logic of authoritarian regimes, why Asian countries so decisively outperformed Western Europe and America in containing coronavirus, why Tufekci thinks media coverage of the vaccines is too pessimistic, the crisis of American democracy, whether a more competent demagogue will succeed Donald Trump, and much more.Mentioned in this episode: <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/23/business/media/how-zeynep-tufekci-keeps-getting-the-big-things-right.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> “How Zeynep Tufekci Keeps Getting the Big Things Right”</a> by Ben Smith<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Why Telling People They Don’t Need Masks Backfired”</a> by Zeynep Tufekci<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-doses.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Can We Do Twice as Many Vaccinations as We Thought?”</a> by Zeynep Tufekci and Michael Mina<a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/trump-proved-authoritarians-can-get-elected-america/617023/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“America’s Next Authoritarian Will Be Much More Competent”</a> by Zeynep TufekciRecommendations: "Groundhog Day" (movie)"<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Normal-Accidents-Living-High-Risk-Technologies-dp-0691004129/dp/0691004129/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&amp;me=&amp;qid=" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Normal Accidents"</a> by Charles Perrow"<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Dispossessed-Hainish-Cycle-Ursula-Guin/dp/0061054887" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Dispossessed"</a> by Ursula K. Le GuinYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter <a href="https://www.twitter.com/ezraklein" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">@ezraklein</a>.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a>.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

To Understand This Era, You Need to Think in Systems

George Saunders

George Saunders is one of America’s greatest living writers. He’s the author of dozens of critically acclaimed short stories, including his 2013 collection, “Tenth of December”; his debut novel, “Lincoln in the Bardo,” won the 2017 Booker Prize; and his nonfiction work has empathy and insight that leave pieces from more than a decade ago ringing in my head today. His most recent book, “A Swim in A Pond in the Rain,” is a literary master class built around seven Russian short stories, analyzing how they work, and what they reveal about how we work.I’ve wanted to interview Saunders for more than 15 years. I first saw him talk when I was in college, and there was a quality of compassion and consideration in every response that was, well, strange. His voice doesn’t sound like his fiction. His fiction is bitingly satirical, manic, often unsettling. His voice is calm, kind, gracious. The dissonance stuck with me.Saunders’s central topic, literalized in his famous 2013 commencement speech, is about what it means to be kind in an unkind world. And that’s the organizing question of this conversation, too. We discuss the collisions between capitalism and human relations, the relationship between writing and meditation, Saunders’s personal editing process, the tension between empathizing with others and holding them to account, the promise of re-localizing our politics, the way our minds deceive us, Tolstoy’s unusual theory of personal transformation, and much more.What a pleasure this conversation was. So worth the wait.Recommendations: "Red Cavalry" by Isaac Babel"Stamped from the Beginning" by Ibram X. Kendi"Dispatches" by Michael Herr"Patriotic Gore" by Edmund Wilson"In Love with the World" by Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche"Loving; Living; Party Going" by Henry Green"Scrambled Eggs &amp; Whiskey" by Hayden Carruth"Tropic of Squalor" by Mary Carr"They Lift Their Wings to Cry" by Brooks Haxton"The Hundred Dresses" by Eleanor Estes and Louis Slobodkin"Caps for Sale" by Esphyr SlobodkinaYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

George Saunders is one of America’s greatest living writers. He’s the author of dozens of critically acclaimed short stories, including his 2013 collection, “Tenth of December”; his debut novel, <a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/231506/lincoln-in-the-bardo-by-george-saunders/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Lincoln in the Bardo,”</a> won the 2017 Booker Prize; and his nonfiction work has empathy and insight that leave pieces from more than a decade ago ringing in my head today. His most recent book, <a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/609280/a-swim-in-a-pond-in-the-rain-by-george-saunders/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“A Swim in A Pond in the Rain,”</a> is a literary master class built around seven Russian short stories, analyzing how they work, and what they reveal about how we work.I’ve wanted to interview Saunders for more than 15 years. I first saw him talk when I was in college, and there was a quality of compassion and consideration in every response that was, well, strange. His voice doesn’t sound like his fiction. His fiction is bitingly satirical, manic, often unsettling. His voice is calm, kind, gracious. The dissonance stuck with me.Saunders’s central topic, literalized in <a href="https://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/george-saunderss-advice-to-graduates/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">his famous 2013 commencement speech</a>, is about what it means to be kind in an unkind world. And that’s the organizing question of this conversation, too. We discuss the collisions between capitalism and human relations, the relationship between writing and meditation, Saunders’s personal editing process, the tension between empathizing with others and holding them to account, the promise of re-localizing our politics, the way our minds deceive us, Tolstoy’s unusual theory of personal transformation, and much more.What a pleasure this conversation was. So worth the wait.Recommendations: <a href="https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393324235" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Red Cavalry"</a> by Isaac Babel<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Stamped-Beginning-Definitive-History-National/dp/1568585985" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Stamped from the Beginning"</a> by Ibram X. Kendi<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/79116/dispatches-by-michael-herr-introduction-by-robert-stone/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Dispatches"</a> by Michael Herr<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Patriotic-Gore-Studies-Literature-American/dp/0393312569" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Patriotic Gore"</a> by Edmund Wilson<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/589667/in-love-with-the-world-by-yongey-mingyur-rinpoche/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"In Love with the World"</a> by Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Loving-Living-Penguin-Twentieth-Century-Classics/dp/0140186913" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Loving; Living; Party Going"</a> by Henry Green<a href="https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51739/scrambled-eggs-and-whiskey" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Scrambled Eggs &amp; Whiskey"</a> by Hayden Carruth<a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/tropic-of-squalor-mary-karr?variant=32207125020706" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Tropic of Squalor"</a> by Mary Carr<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/77140/they-lift-their-wings-to-cry-by-brooks-haxton/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"They Lift Their Wings to Cry"</a> by Brooks Haxton<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Hundred-Dresses-Eleanor-Estes/dp/0152052607" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Hundred Dresses"</a> by Eleanor Estes and Louis Slobodkin<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Caps-Sale-Peddler-Monkeys-Business/dp/0064431436" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Caps for Sale"</a> by Esphyr SlobodkinaYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter <a href="https://www.twitter.com/ezraklein" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">@ezraklein</a>.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a>.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

What It Means to be Kind in a Cruel World

“We are as gods and might as well get good at it,” Stewart Brand famously wrote in “The Whole Earth Catalogue.” Human beings act upon nature at fantastic scale, altering whole ecosystems, terraforming the world to our purposes, breeding new species into existence and driving countless more into extinction. The power we wield is awesome. But Brand was overly optimistic. We did not get good at it. We are terrible at it, and the consequences surround us.That’s the central theme of the Pulitzer Prize-winning author and journalist Elizabeth Kolbert’s new book, “Under a White Sky: The Nature of the Future.” And yet, there is no going back. We will not return to a prelapsarian period where humans let nature alone. Indeed, as Kolbert shows, there is no natural nature left — we live in the world (and in particular, a climate) we altered, and are altering. The awful knowledge that our interventions have gone awry again and again must be paired with the awful reality that we have no choice save to try to manage the mess we have made.Examples abound in Kolbert’s book, but in my conversation with her  I wanted to focus on one that obsesses me: solar geoengineering. To even contemplate it feels like the height of hubris. Are we really going to dim the sun? And yet, any reasonable analysis of the mismatch between our glacial politics and our rapidly warming planet demands that we deny ourselves the luxury of only contemplating the solutions we would prefer. With every subsequent day that our politics fails, the choices that we will need to make in the future become worse.This is a conversation about some of the difficult trade-offs and suboptimal options that we are left with in what Kolbert describes as a “no-analog moment.” We discuss the prospect of intentionally sending sulfurous particles into the atmosphere to dim the sun, whether “carbon capture” technology could scale up to the levels needed to make a dent in emissions levels, the ethics of using gene editing technologies to make endangered species more resistant to climate change, the governance mechanisms needed to prevent these technologies from getting out of hand, what a healthier narrative about humanity’s relationship with nature would sound like, how the pandemic altered carbon emissions, and more.At the end, we discuss another fascinating question that Kolbert wrote about recently in The New Yorker: Why is a Harvard astrophysicist arguing Earth has already been visited by aliens, and should we believe him?Mentioned in this episode: Whole Earth CatalogueField Notes from a Catastrophe by Elizabeth KolbertThe Sixth Extinction by Elizabeth KolbertThe Ministry of the Future by Kim Stanley RobinsonExtraterrestrial: The First Sign of Intelligent Life Beyond Earth by Avi LoebRecommendations: "The Great Gatsby" by F. Scott Fitzgerald"The Complete Stories of Franz Kafka""The Song of the Dodo" by David Quammen"Global Warming (The Complete Briefing)" by John Houghton"Cosmicomics" by Italo Calvino"The Phantom Tollbooth" by Norton Juster"Charlotte’s Web" by E.B. WhiteYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

“We are as gods and might as well get good at it,” Stewart Brand famously wrote in “The Whole Earth Catalogue.” Human beings act upon nature at fantastic scale, altering whole ecosystems, terraforming the world to our purposes, breeding new species into existence and driving countless more into extinction. The power we wield is awesome. But Brand was overly optimistic. We did not get good at it. We are terrible at it, and the consequences surround us.That’s the central theme of the Pulitzer Prize-winning author and journalist Elizabeth Kolbert’s new book, <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Under-White-Sky-Nature-Future/dp/0593136276" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Under a White Sky: The Nature of the Future.”</a> And yet, there is no going back. We will not return to a prelapsarian period where humans let nature alone. Indeed, as Kolbert shows, there is no natural nature left — we live in the world (and in particular, a climate) we altered, and are altering. The awful knowledge that our interventions have gone awry again and again must be paired with the awful reality that we have no choice save to try to manage the mess we have made.Examples abound in Kolbert’s book, but in my conversation with her  I wanted to focus on one that obsesses me: solar geoengineering. To even contemplate it feels like the height of hubris. Are we really going to dim the sun? And yet, any reasonable analysis of the mismatch between our glacial politics and our rapidly warming planet demands that we deny ourselves the luxury of only contemplating the solutions we would prefer. With every subsequent day that our politics fails, the choices that we will need to make in the future become worse.This is a conversation about some of the difficult trade-offs and suboptimal options that we are left with in what Kolbert describes as a “no-analog moment.” We discuss the prospect of intentionally sending sulfurous particles into the atmosphere to dim the sun, whether “carbon capture” technology could scale up to the levels needed to make a dent in emissions levels, the ethics of using gene editing technologies to make endangered species more resistant to climate change, the governance mechanisms needed to prevent these technologies from getting out of hand, what a healthier narrative about humanity’s relationship with nature would sound like, how the pandemic altered carbon emissions, and more.At the end, we discuss another fascinating question that Kolbert wrote about recently <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/01/25/have-we-already-been-visited-by-aliens" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">in The New Yorker</a>: Why is a Harvard astrophysicist arguing Earth has already been visited by aliens, and should we believe him?Mentioned in this episode: <a href="https://monoskop.org/images/0/09/Brand_Stewart_Whole_Earth_Catalog_Fall_1968.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Whole Earth Catalogue</a><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Field-Notes-Catastrophe-Nature-Climate/dp/1596911301" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Field Notes from a Catastrophe </a>by Elizabeth Kolbert<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Sixth-Extinction-Unnatural-History/dp/1250062187" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Sixth Extinction</a> by Elizabeth Kolbert<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Ministry-Future-Kim-Stanley-Robinson/dp/0316300136" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Ministry of the Future</a> by Kim Stanley Robinson<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Extraterrestrial-First-Intelligent-Beyond-Earth/dp/0358278147" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Extraterrestrial: The First Sign of Intelligent Life Beyond Earth </a>by Avi LoebRecommendations: <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Great-Gatsby-F-Scott-Fitzgerald/dp/0743273567" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Great Gatsby"</a> by F. Scott Fitzgerald<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Franz-Kafka-Complete-Stories/dp/0805210555" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Complete Stories of Franz Kafka"</a><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Song-Dodo-Island-Biogeography-Extinction/dp/0684827123" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Song of the Dodo"</a> by David Quammen<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Global-Warming-Complete-John-Houghton/dp/0521709164" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Global Warming (The Complete Briefing)"</a> by John Houghton<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Cosmicomics-Italo-Calvino/dp/0156226006" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Cosmicomics"</a> by Italo Calvino<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Phantom-Tollbooth-Norton-Juster/dp/0394820371" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Phantom Tollbooth"</a> by Norton Juster<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Charlottes-Web-B-White/dp/0061124958" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Charlotte’s Web"</a> by E.B. WhiteYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter <a href="https://www.twitter.com/ezraklein" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">@ezraklein</a>.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a>.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

Should We Dim the Sun? Will We Even Have a Choice?

One thing I want to do on this show is give space to truly radical ideas, to expand the boundaries of our political and moral imaginations. And Hélène Landemore, a political scientist at Yale, has one of those ideas. She calls it “open democracy,” and the premise is simple: What we call democracy is not very democratic.The role of the people is confined to elections, to choosing the elites who will represent us. Landemore argues that our political thinking is stuck in “18th-century epistemologies and technologies.” It is not enough.We’ve learned much in the last few hundred years about random sampling, about the benefits of cognitively diverse groups, about the ways elections are captured by those with the most social and financial capital. Landemore wants to take what we’ve learned and build a new vision of democracy atop it — one in which we let groups of randomly selected citizens actually deliberate and govern. One in which we trust deliberation and diversity, not elections and political parties, to shape our ideas and to restrain our worst impulses.This is a challenging idea. I don’t know that it would work. But it’s a provocation worth wrestling with, particularly at this moment, when our ideas about democracy have so far outpaced the thin, corrupted ways in which we practice it.You’ve heard people say, “We’re a republic, not a democracy.” Landemore’s challenge is this: What if we were a democracy? We honor those who came before us for radically reimagining who could govern, and how politics could work. But did they really discover the terminal state of democracy? Or are there bold steps left for us to take?Recommendations:"Liquid Reign" by Tim Reutemann"The Three Musketeers" by Alexandre Dumas"The Principles of Representative Government" by Bernard ManinMortelle Adèle Book SeriesYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

One thing I want to do on this show is give space to truly radical ideas, to expand the boundaries of our political and moral imaginations. And Hélène Landemore, a political scientist at Yale, has one of those ideas. She calls it <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Open-Democracy-Reinventing-Popular-Century/dp/0691181993" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“open democracy,”</a> and the premise is simple: What we call democracy is not very democratic.The role of the people is confined to elections, to choosing the elites who will represent us. Landemore argues that our political thinking is stuck in “18th-century epistemologies and technologies.” It is not enough.We’ve learned much in the last few hundred years about random sampling, about the benefits of cognitively diverse groups, about the ways elections are captured by those with the most social and financial capital. Landemore wants to take what we’ve learned and build a new vision of democracy atop it — one in which we let groups of randomly selected citizens actually deliberate and govern. One in which we trust deliberation and diversity, not elections and political parties, to shape our ideas and to restrain our worst impulses.This is a challenging idea. I don’t know that it would work. But it’s a provocation worth wrestling with, particularly at this moment, when our ideas about democracy have so far outpaced the thin, corrupted ways in which we practice it.You’ve heard people say, “We’re a republic, not a democracy.” Landemore’s challenge is this: What if we were a democracy? We honor those who came before us for radically reimagining who could govern, and how politics could work. But did they really discover the terminal state of democracy? Or are there bold steps left for us to take?Recommendations:<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Reign-Tim-Reutemann/dp/1981029176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Liquid Reign"</a> by Tim Reutemann<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/218581/the-three-musketeers-by-alexandre-dumas/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Three Musketeers"</a> by Alexandre Dumas<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Representative-Government-Themes-Sciences/dp/0521458919" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Principles of Representative Government"</a> by Bernard Manin<a href="https://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B01E6Y3CP0/ref=dp_st_2848018038" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Mortelle Adèle Book Series</a>You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter <a href="https://www.twitter.com/ezraklein" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">@ezraklein</a>.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a>.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

A Radical Proposal for True Democracy

Last week, freezing temperatures overwhelmed the Texas power grid, setting off rolling blackouts that left millions without power during an intense winter storm. But this story is a lot bigger than Texas: Our world is built around a model of the climate from the 19th and 20th centuries. Global warming is going to crack that model apart, and with it, much of the physical and political infrastructure civilization relies on.At the same time, there’s good news on the climate front, too. The Biden administration has rejoined the Paris climate accords, pushed through a blitz of executive orders on the environment, and is planning a multitrillion-dollar climate bill. China has also set newly ambitious targets for decarbonization. Renewable energy is getting cheaper, faster, than almost anyone dared hope. And if you follow climate models, you know the most catastrophic outcomes have become less likely in recent years.I wanted to have a conversation about both the emergency in Texas, and the broader picture on climate. Leah Stokes is a political scientist at University of California, Santa Barbara, and author of the excellent book “Short Circuiting Policy,” which, among other things, explores Texas’ surprising history with renewables. David Wallace-Wells is an editor at large at New York magazine and author of "The Uninhabitable Earth," one of the most sobering, disquieting portraits of our future — though he is, as you’ll hear in this discussion, getting a bit more optimistic.We discuss whether the Texas crisis is going to be the new normal worldwide, the harrowing implications of how Texas Republicans have responded, why liberals should be cheering on Elon Musk, the difficulties liberal states are having on climate policy, the obstacles to decarbonization, the horrifying truth of what “adapting” to climate change will actually entail, why air pollution alone is a public health crisis worth solving, whether nuclear energy is the answer, and much more. I learned so much getting to sit in on this conversation. You will, too.Mentioned in this episode:“Migration towards Bangladesh coastlines projected to increase with sea level rise through 2100” by AR Bell, et al.“Inequity in consumption of goods and services adds to racial–ethnic disparities in air pollution exposure” by Christopher W. Tessum, et al.“Wildfire Exposure Increases Pro-Environment Voting within Democratic but Not Republican Areas” by Chad Hazlett and Matto Mildenberger“Prisoners of the Wrong Dilemma: Why Distributive Conflict, Not Collective Action, Characterizes the Politics of Climate Change” by Michaël Aklin and Matto MildenbergerRecommendations: "Short Circuiting Policy" by Leah Stokes"The Lorax" by Dr. Seuss"Under a White Sky" by Elizabeth Kolbert"The Ministry for the Future" by Kim Stanley RobinsonYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

Last week, freezing temperatures overwhelmed the Texas power grid, setting off rolling blackouts that left millions without power during an intense winter storm. But this story is a lot bigger than Texas: Our world is built around a model of the climate from the 19th and 20th centuries. Global warming is going to crack that model apart, and with it, much of the physical and political infrastructure civilization relies on.At the same time, there’s good news on the climate front, too. The Biden administration has rejoined the Paris climate accords, pushed through a blitz of executive orders on the environment, and is planning a multitrillion-dollar climate bill. China has also set newly ambitious targets for decarbonization. Renewable energy is getting cheaper, faster, than almost anyone dared hope. And if you follow climate models, you know the most catastrophic outcomes have become less likely in recent years.I wanted to have a conversation about both the emergency in Texas, and the broader picture on climate. Leah Stokes is a political scientist at University of California, Santa Barbara, and author of the excellent book <a href="https://global.oup.com/academic/product/short-circuiting-policy-9780190074265" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Short Circuiting Policy</a>,” which, among other things, explores Texas’ surprising history with renewables. David Wallace-Wells is an editor at large at New York magazine and author of <a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/586541/the-uninhabitable-earth-by-david-wallace-wells/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Uninhabitable Earth,"</a> one of the most sobering, disquieting portraits of our future — though he is, as you’ll hear in this discussion, getting a bit more optimistic.We discuss whether the Texas crisis is going to be the new normal worldwide, the harrowing implications of how Texas Republicans have responded, why liberals should be cheering on Elon Musk, the difficulties liberal states are having on climate policy, the obstacles to decarbonization, the horrifying truth of what “adapting” to climate change will actually entail, why air pollution alone is a public health crisis worth solving, whether nuclear energy is the answer, and much more. I learned so much getting to sit in on this conversation. You will, too.Mentioned in this episode:“<a href="https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/abdc5b/pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Migration towards Bangladesh coastlines projected to increase with sea level rise through 2100”</a> by AR Bell, et al.<a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/116/13/6001" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Inequity in consumption of goods and services adds to racial–ethnic disparities in air pollution exposure”</a> by Christopher W. Tessum, et al.<a href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-political-science-review/article/abs/wildfire-exposure-increases-proenvironment-voting-within-democratic-but-not-republican-areas/8F483913E13A44DCB975CE90024C0931" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Wildfire Exposure Increases Pro-Environment Voting within Democratic but Not Republican Areas”</a> by Chad Hazlett and Matto Mildenberger“<a href="https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/glep_a_00578" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Prisoners of the Wrong Dilemma: Why Distributive Conflict, Not Collective Action, Characterizes the Politics of Climate Change</a>” by Michaël Aklin and Matto MildenbergerRecommendations: <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Short-Circuiting-Policy-Political-Development/dp/0190074264" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Short Circuiting Policy"</a> by Leah Stokes<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Lorax-Classic-Seuss-Dr/dp/0394823370" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Lorax"</a> by Dr. Seuss<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/617060/under-a-white-sky-by-elizabeth-kolbert/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Under a White Sky"</a> by Elizabeth Kolbert<a href="https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/kim-stanley-robinson/the-ministry-for-the-future/9780316300162/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"The Ministry for the Future"</a> by Kim Stanley RobinsonYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter <a href="https://www.twitter.com/ezraklein" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">@ezraklein</a>.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a>.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

How the Texas Crisis Could Become Everyone's Crisis

Ted Chiang

For years, I’ve kept a list of dream guests for this show. And as long as that list has existed, Ted Chiang has been atop it.Chiang is a science fiction writer. But that undersells him. He has released two short story collections over 20 years — 2002’s “Stories of Your Life and Others” and 2019’s “Exhalation.” Those stories have won more awards than I can list, and one of them was turned into the film “Arrival.” They are remarkable pieces of work: Each is built around a profound scientific, philosophical or religious idea, and then the story or the story structure is shaped to represent that idea. They are wonders of precision and craft. But unlike a lot of science fiction, they are never cold. Chiang’s work is deeply, irrepressibly humane.I’ve always wondered about the mind that would create Chiang’s stories. And in this conversation I got to watch it in action. Chiang doesn’t like to talk about himself. But he does like to talk about ideas. And so we do: We discuss the difference between magic and technology, why superheroes fight crime but ignore injustice, what it would do to the human psyche if we knew the future is fixed, whether free will exists, whether we’d want to know the exact date of our deaths, why Chiang fears what humans will do to artificial intelligence more than what A.I. will do to humans, the way capitalism turns people against technology, and much more.The ideas Chiang offered in this conversation are still ringing in my head, and changing the way I see the world. It’s worth taking your time with this one.Recommendations: "Creation" by Steve Grand"On the Measure of Intelligence" by Francois Chollet"CivilWarLand in Bad Decline" by George Saunders"A Visit from the Goon Squad" by Jennifer Egan"Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honnêamise" (movie)"On Fragile Waves" by Lily Yu"Pilgrim at Tinker Creek" by Annie DillardControl (video game)Return of the Obra Dinn (video game)You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

For years, I’ve kept a list of dream guests for this show. And as long as that list has existed, Ted Chiang has been atop it.Chiang is a science fiction writer. But that undersells him. He has released two short story collections over 20 years — 2002’s <a href="https://www.indiebound.org/book/9781101972120" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Stories of Your Life and Others”</a> and 2019’s <a href="https://www.indiebound.org/book/9781101947883" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Exhalation.”</a> Those stories have won more awards than I can list, and one of them was turned into the film “Arrival.” They are remarkable pieces of work: Each is built around a profound scientific, philosophical or religious idea, and then the story or the story structure is shaped to represent that idea. They are wonders of precision and craft. But unlike a lot of science fiction, they are never cold. Chiang’s work is deeply, irrepressibly humane.I’ve always wondered about the mind that would create Chiang’s stories. And in this conversation I got to watch it in action. Chiang doesn’t like to talk about himself. But he does like to talk about ideas. And so we do: We discuss the difference between magic and technology, why superheroes fight crime but ignore injustice, what it would do to the human psyche if we knew the future is fixed, whether free will exists, whether we’d want to know the exact date of our deaths, why Chiang fears what humans will do to artificial intelligence more than what A.I. will do to humans, the way capitalism turns people against technology, and much more.The ideas Chiang offered in this conversation are still ringing in my head, and changing the way I see the world. It’s worth taking your time with this one.Recommendations: <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Creation-Life-Make-Steve-Grand/dp/0674011139" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Creation"</a> by Steve Grand<a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.01547.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"On the Measure of Intelligence"</a> by Francois Chollet<a href="https://www.amazon.com/CivilWarLand-Bad-Decline-Stories-Novella/dp/0812987683" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"CivilWarLand in Bad Decline"</a> by George Saunders<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Visit-Goon-Squad-Jennifer-Egan/dp/0307477479" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"A Visit from the Goon Squad"</a> by Jennifer Egan<a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093207/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honnêamise"</a> (movie)<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Fragile-Waves-Lily-Yu/dp/1645660095" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"On Fragile Waves"</a> by Lily Yu<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Pilgrim-Tinker-Harper-Perennial-Classics/dp/0061233323" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"</a> by Annie Dillard<a href="https://controlgame.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Control</a> (video game)<a href="https://obradinn.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Return of the Obra Dinn</a> (video game)You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter <a href="https://www.twitter.com/ezraklein" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">@ezraklein</a>.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a>.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

The Author Behind ‘Arrival’ Doesn’t Fear AI. ‘Look at How We Treat Animals.’

In the aftermath of the Capitol attack, the polling firm Echelon Insights decided to ask voters a simple question: Do they think the goal of politics is more about “enacting good public policy” or “ensuring the country’s survival as we know it?”Only 25 percent of Republicans said politics is about policy; nearly half said it’s about survival. That’s today’s Republican Party in a nutshell.I’ve had some recent conversations with Republicans who are trying to reform their party, to push it back toward policy and, in some cases, reality. But, for now, we’re governing with the Republican Party we have, not the Republican Party many want. So what does that Republican Party, the real Republican Party, believe?Kristen Soltis Anderson is a Republican pollster, host of Sirius XM’s “The Trendline,” and co-founder of Echelon Insights. She has done some of the most in-depth surveys of Republican voters to date: the issues that animate them, the traits they look for in presidential candidates, how they consume information, their faith in Donald Trump and much more. So I asked her about what today’s Republicans believe, and what that reveals about where the party is going next.Recommendations: "Grand New Party" by Ross Douthat and Reihan Salam"Resonate" by Nancy Duarte“Generations Status and Party Identification, A Theory of Operant Conditioning” by Keith Billingsley and Clyde Tucker"Dragons Love Tacos" by Adam RubinYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

In the aftermath of the Capitol attack, the polling firm Echelon Insights decided to ask voters a simple question: Do they think the goal of politics is more about “enacting good public policy” or “ensuring the country’s survival as we know it?”Only <a href="https://twitter.com/PatrickRuffini/status/1356710237055647752" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">25 percent</a> of Republicans said politics is about policy; nearly half said it’s about survival. That’s today’s Republican Party in a nutshell.I’ve had <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-yuval-levin.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">some</a><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/02/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-ramesh-ponnuru.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> recent conversations</a> with Republicans who are trying to reform their party, to push it back toward policy and, in some cases, reality. But, for now, we’re governing with the Republican Party we have, not the Republican Party many want. So what does that Republican Party, the real Republican Party, believe?Kristen Soltis Anderson is a Republican pollster, host of Sirius XM’s “The Trendline,” and co-founder of Echelon Insights. She has done some of the most in-depth surveys of Republican voters to date: the issues that animate them, the traits they look for in presidential candidates, how they consume information, their faith in Donald Trump and much more. So I asked her about what today’s Republicans believe, and what that reveals about where the party is going next.Recommendations: <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Grand-New-Party-Republicans-American/dp/0307277801" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Grand New Party"</a> by Ross Douthat and Reihan Salam<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Resonate-Present-Stories-Transform-Audiences/dp/0470632011" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Resonate"</a> by Nancy Duarte<a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00988210" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Generations Status and Party Identification, A Theory of Operant Conditioning”</a> by Keith Billingsley and Clyde Tucker<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Dragons-Love-Tacos-Adam-Rubin/dp/0803736800" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Dragons Love Tacos"</a> by Adam RubinYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter <a href="https://www.twitter.com/ezraklein" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">@ezraklein</a>.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a>.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

A Top G.O.P. Pollster on Trump 2024, QAnon and What Republicans Really Want

Bernie Sanders

Bernie Sanders didn’t win the 2020 election. But he may have won its aftermath.If you look back at Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders’s careers, the $1.9 trillion stimulus package, the American Rescue Plan, looks a lot like the proposals Sanders has fought for forever, without much of the compromise or concerns that you used to see from Senator Joe Biden. That’s not to take anything away from Biden. He’s the president. This is his plan. And it is to his credit that he saw what the country needed, what the politics of the moment would support and where his party had moved, and met it with full force.But Sanders’s two presidential campaigns are part of the reason that the Democratic Party had moved, and the politics of the moment had changed. And so I’ve wondered what Sanders makes of this moment. Is it a triumph? A disappointment? A beginning?And I’ve wondered about his take on some of the other questions swirling around the Democratic Party: Are liberals alienating people who agree with them on economics by being too censorious on culture? Is there room to work with populist Republicans who might be open to new economic ideas even as they turn against liberal democracy itself?You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

Bernie Sanders didn’t win the 2020 election. But he may have won its aftermath.If you look back at Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders’s careers, the $1.9 trillion stimulus package, the American Rescue Plan, looks a lot like the proposals Sanders has fought for forever, without much of the compromise or concerns that you used to see from Senator Joe Biden. That’s not to take anything away from Biden. He’s the president. This is his plan. And it is to his credit that he saw what the country needed, what the politics of the moment would support and where his party had moved, and met it with full force.But Sanders’s two presidential campaigns are part of the reason that the Democratic Party had moved, and the politics of the moment had changed. And so I’ve wondered what Sanders makes of this moment. Is it a triumph? A disappointment? A beginning?And I’ve wondered about his take on some of the other questions swirling around the Democratic Party: Are liberals alienating people who agree with them on economics by being too censorious on culture? Is there room to work with populist Republicans who might be open to new economic ideas even as they turn against liberal democracy itself?You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter <a href="https://www.twitter.com/ezraklein" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">@ezraklein</a>.Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at <a href="mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com">ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com</a>.“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

An Unusually Optimistic Conversation With Bernie Sanders

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