Sarah Rector and her nephew( With Permission of Debbie Brown)I’m Rachel Hopkin and this How Curious episode focuses on an Oklahoma native whose life changed forever when she was just a girl back in 1913. Her name is Sarah Rector. That’s undisputed. So is fact that she was owner of a land allotment which became a huge source of oil. But much about Sarah is unknown and many of the accounts circulating about her contain errors. In fact, almost as soon as oil was found on her land, Sarah became the subject of baseless rumors. Then, as the decades passed, she faded from the public eye - so much so that even her own nieces only became aware of the extraordinary nature of her life after her death in 1967. I spoke with three daughters of Sarah’s younger sister Rosa: Donna Brown-Thompkins, Rosina Graves, and Debbie Brown. They remember that their aunt had "more things than we did, and our mother was just like ‘she can afford it’. But it never dawned on us either way of being rich and famous, because she didn’t act any different or dress any differently. And we called her ‘Aunt Sister’, because our mother always referred to her as ‘Sister’."   Sarah Rector's nieces. Ltr:  Diann Brown, Donna Brown-Thompkins, Debbie Brown, Rosina Graves( With Permission of Debbie Brown)With their help, as well as that of the other people I spoke with for this episode and a few good texts, I hope to either stick to the truth, or - at least - informed historical conjecture as I go about relaying Sarah's story here.Sarah Rector was born in 1902 in what is now northeast Oklahoma but which was then Indian Territory. Her parents were farmers and Freedmen – the term used to describe African-American ex-slaves of Native American tribes and their descendants. As citizens of the Muscogee nation, eligible Rector family members each received a 160 acres of land. But, according to Anita Arnold of Oklahoma City's Black Liberated Arts Center, the allotment given to Sarah seemed pretty worthless on the surface: “The land they gave to Sarah was so sandy and rocky, her father just despaired because nothing would grow on it." And he had to pay taxes on it, to the tune of around $30 a year, which be close to $1000 today. So in order to pay the taxes “he signed a lease with an oil company" according to Anita, "and that’s when they found all this oil. She had one of the largest oil pools on her property ever, and so she went basically from rags to riches overnight. News of her wealth spread throughout the world, and she was getting marriage proposals from mostly white men. And she was just 11 years old."Kathleen Watkins is an Oklahoma City playwright whose works focus on little known aspects of African American history. In 2018, she wrote a play about Rector called Brown Skinned Rich Girl. Kathleen remembers having a strong emotional reaction when she first learned about Sarah’s story: "It got my heart because I can only imagine being that age – 11 years old – and being told I have all of this money and not really understanding any of it. I mean, within her family, as well as with people in the community – what that must have been like. And then when people began to come from all over to see this little Black girl. It must have been so scary for her."  Playwright Kathleen Watkins( With Permission of Kathleen Watkins)Sarah had good reason to be afraid. Two years earlier, a brother and sister around Sarah’s age had been murdered for their allotments. Herbert and Stella Sells had lived in Taft, the closest town to the Rector farm and it’s very likely that Sarah knew them. Kathleen believes that if “if it had not been for the publicity she got, she might also have been a victim to that”. As it was, newspapers around the world had taken up Sarah’s story (though, as mentioned earlier, their reports often contained more fiction than fact). It was a series of articles published in the African American newspaper, The Chicago Defender, which prompted a number of notable Black activists to intervene, including W. E. B. DuBois. DuBois wrote to the Rector family’s local judge on June 6, 1914 regarding some of the alarming claims he had read. Judge Leahy responded to him just five days later. (Debbie Brown kindly gave permission for How Curious to share Judge Leahy's letter on this webpage.) In his letter, Leahy confirms that as the Muskogee County judge, he has jurisdiction over Sarah’s estate. From his words, it's also clear that he was no stranger to situations like Sarah’s: "As is my practice with these larger estate`s, I went to the Rector home on a Sunday and as soon as oil was discovered […], and in the presence of the parents, the Guardian and his attorney, took up and discussed the entire situation etc., and agreed upon certain changes looking towards the betterment of conditions for Sarah and the entire family." One of those changes was the construction of a five-bedroom  home, putting paid to claims that Sarah was living in a shack. Another claim that she was uneducated was false – she was attending the local school in Taft. Moreover, during the discussion, Sarah’s father agreed that once she was a few months older, he would allow her to leave home to attend a more prestigious institution elsewhere.The Defender articles had also expressed consternation regarding the handling of Sarah’s money, and asserted that she had been assigned a white guardian who was getting a “fabulous sum each year” but only allowing Sarah “a few dollars each month”. At that time in Oklahoma, it was standard to assign guardians to look after the assets of wealthy non-white children. They usually took the form of white businessmen and, alas, many of them did swindle their young charges. However, Leahy had already garnered a reputation for taking action against such grafters and sought to reassure DuBois on this point: "As to this ward having a white Guardian, this is true. The parents themselves selected him, his name being T J Porter, cattleman and neighbor of this family, who has been their benefactor for years and long before there was any possibility of their ever having any money." Most of Sarah’s money was placed in investments.In the autumn of 1914, Sarah and her older sister Rebecca traveled to the Tuskegee Institute in Alabama, where they were enrolled in its elementary school. From there, they went on to Fisk University in Tennessee and that’s where they were when the Rector family quietly relocated to a substantial house on East 12th Street of Kansas City, Missouri. Often referred to as the “Sarah Rector Mansion," it was actually owned by Sarah’s mother but was home to the entire close-knit Rector clan. Rose Rector - Sarah Rector's mother ( With Permission of Debbie Brown)When Sarah turned 21 in 1922, she was finally able to manage her own wealth. She quickly developed a taste for life’s finer things according to her nieces. Debbie Brown told me that “we had a store here in the downtown area where Blacks could not shop. It was Emery, Bird, Thayer. And they would lock their doors up and close early to allow her to come down there and shop. They also would also take clothes and stuff to the Rector Mansion for her to try on.” Her nieces also laughed about their aunt's love of cars. Apparently Sarah “constantly bought cars cos she and Uncle Alfred kept wrecking them. She’d just go buy another one." Sarah also apparently loved to party and adored music, so she must have thoroughly enjoyed living in one of the hottest jazz scenes in the country. Among the big name musicians she entertained at the Rector Mansion were Duke Ellington and Count Basie.  Sarah Rector with her first husband Kenneth Campbell( With permission of Debbie Brown)Sarah married twice. She was 20 when she and her first husband wed. The couple had three sons before going their separate ways after around seven years. She married her second husband – a Kansas City restaurant owner – in 1934 and they were together until she died. And although the 1929 Wall Street Crash apparently caused her to lose a lot of money, she nonetheless remained comfortable for the rest of her life.Money can often be the cause of deep rifts between people, but Sarah remained very close with her family. Her nieces recalled that when Sarah purchased a farm, all of the Rectors would spent time there: “she had a great big old garden and all the adults that went out, they helped with the garden and planted stuff. It wasn’t differentiated that it was her farm. It was a farm where we all went and we just had a good time."When Sarah died in 1967, Donna was 12 and Rosina and Debbie were in their late teens. As mentioned earlier, that’s when they began to grasp how exceptional their aunt’s life had been. At the same time however, they were warned against exploring it too deeply, at least with regard to one aspect, as Debbie recalls: "After she passed, I remember my mum and our uncle going to Oklahoma a lot. And they came back one time and got all of us together and said ‘whatever you hear about Oklahoma or whatever is down there, leave it alone. It’s dangerous, it’s not worth it.' And my mum told us some of the story about the Sells children. We truly believe that my grandmother moved everybody up here to Kansas City just from the fear of being blown up because of the money. That’s why my mum was: ‘just don’t go down there,’ my uncle: ‘don’t go down there.' After they passed, just going down there for genealogy and stuff, the three of us, my oldest brother’s like ‘you don’t need to be going down there. Momma told you don’t go down there talking about you’re a Rector,' and that was only 10 years, 15 years ago." So the nieces have largely steered clear of Oklahoma, although Sarah is buried here in Taft, very close to where she grew up. But while they avoid that part of their aunt’s story, they are concerned about misinformation spread regarding other aspects of Sarah’s life, including her physical self.  Sarah Rector with a brother-in-law( With Permission of Debbie Brown)Currently if you search for Sarah Rector online, two black and white images repeatedly surface. One is a full length shot of a solemn girl aged around 12 years. Her hair is in pigtails, she’s wearing a plaid dress, and her right hand is holding onto a chair. The other is a head shot of a young woman. Her hair is center-parted and seems to be plaited on top of her head. She’s wearing a dark blouse or dress and there's some pale lace and a bow around the collar. Yet Sarah’s nieces are adamant that neither of these photos are actually of their aunt. The name of the lady in the adult photo appears to be Callie House, a civil rights activist who was born over 50 years before Sarah. Certainly if you search for “Callie House” online, that image will come up. As for the other photo, the nieces’ mother told them years ago that the girl was not their aunt. The fact that many people believe that these two photos depict Sarah Rector is deeply frustrating to them: “It’s not our family. If our family’s going to be out there, at least have the right picture out there." (Debbie Brown kindly shared the three images of the actual Sarah which are included on this webpage, as well as the one of Sarah's mother.)Sarah Rector’s story is the last in the current series of How Curious. We’ll be back in the Autumn. In the meantime, you can find all the previous episodes on the KGOU site or wherever you get podcasts. My deep thanks to all of the contributors to this episode: Anita Arnold, Debbie Brown, Donna Brown-Thompkins, Rosina Graves, and Kathleen Watkins. Thanks also to Deidre Anderson, Cody Clark, and to John McGraw, who read the excerpts from Judge Leahy’s letter in the audio version of this story.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced and hosted by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music.If you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject that you’d like How Curious to cover, please email us at curious@kgou.org. We’d love to hear from you.Subscribe to How Curious wherever you get podcasts.*This is amended from the original headline which read "The Richest Black Colored Girl in America".(The audio version of this story refers to the The African American History Is AMERICAN History’s video about Sarah Rector which is called "Sarah Rector: 'The Richest Colored Girl in the World'").

Sarah Rector and her nephew( With Permission of Debbie Brown)I’m Rachel Hopkin and this How Curious episode focuses on an Oklahoma native whose life changed forever when she was just a girl back in 1913. Her name is Sarah Rector. That’s undisputed. So is fact that she was owner of a land allotment which became a huge source of oil. But much about Sarah is unknown and many of the accounts circulating about her contain errors. In fact, almost as soon as oil was found on her land, Sarah became the subject of baseless rumors. Then, as the decades passed, she faded from the public eye - so much so that even her own nieces only became aware of the extraordinary nature of her life after her death in 1967. I spoke with three daughters of Sarah’s younger sister Rosa: Donna Brown-Thompkins, Rosina Graves, and Debbie Brown. They remember that their aunt had "more things than we did, and our mother was just like ‘she can afford it’. But it never dawned on us either way of being rich and famous, because she didn’t act any different or dress any differently. And we called her ‘Aunt Sister’, because our mother always referred to her as ‘Sister’." Sarah Rector's nieces. Ltr: Diann Brown, Donna Brown-Thompkins, Debbie Brown, Rosina Graves( With Permission of Debbie Brown)With their help, as well as that of the other people I spoke with for this episode and a few good texts, I hope to either stick to the truth, or - at least - informed historical conjecture as I go about relaying Sarah's story here.Sarah Rector was born in 1902 in what is now northeast Oklahoma but which was then Indian Territory. Her parents were farmers and Freedmen – the term used to describe African-American ex-slaves of Native American tribes and their descendants. As citizens of the Muscogee nation, eligible Rector family members each received a 160 acres of land. But, according to Anita Arnold of Oklahoma City's Black Liberated Arts Center, the allotment given to Sarah seemed pretty worthless on the surface: “The land they gave to Sarah was so sandy and rocky, her father just despaired because nothing would grow on it." And he had to pay taxes on it, to the tune of around $30 a year, which be close to $1000 today. So in order to pay the taxes “he signed a lease with an oil company" according to Anita, "and that’s when they found all this oil. She had one of the largest oil pools on her property ever, and so she went basically from rags to riches overnight. News of her wealth spread throughout the world, and she was getting marriage proposals from mostly white men. And she was just 11 years old."Kathleen Watkins is an Oklahoma City playwright whose works focus on little known aspects of African American history. In 2018, she wrote a play about Rector called Brown Skinned Rich Girl. Kathleen remembers having a strong emotional reaction when she first learned about Sarah’s story: "It got my heart because I can only imagine being that age – 11 years old – and being told I have all of this money and not really understanding any of it. I mean, within her family, as well as with people in the community – what that must have been like. And then when people began to come from all over to see this little Black girl. It must have been so scary for her." Playwright Kathleen Watkins( With Permission of Kathleen Watkins)Sarah had good reason to be afraid. Two years earlier, a brother and sister around Sarah’s age had been murdered for their allotments. Herbert and Stella Sells had lived in Taft, the closest town to the Rector farm and it’s very likely that Sarah knew them. Kathleen believes that if “if it had not been for the publicity she got, she might also have been a victim to that”. As it was, newspapers around the world had taken up Sarah’s story (though, as mentioned earlier, their reports often contained more fiction than fact). It was a series of articles published in the African American newspaper, The Chicago Defender, which prompted a number of notable Black activists to intervene, including W. E. B. DuBois. DuBois wrote to the Rector family’s local judge on June 6, 1914 regarding some of the alarming claims he had read. Judge Leahy responded to him just five days later. (Debbie Brown kindly gave permission for How Curious to share Judge Leahy's letter on this webpage.) In his letter, Leahy confirms that as the Muskogee County judge, he has jurisdiction over Sarah’s estate. From his words, it's also clear that he was no stranger to situations like Sarah’s: "As is my practice with these larger estate`s, I went to the Rector home on a Sunday and as soon as oil was discovered […], and in the presence of the parents, the Guardian and his attorney, took up and discussed the entire situation etc., and agreed upon certain changes looking towards the betterment of conditions for Sarah and the entire family." One of those changes was the construction of a five-bedroom home, putting paid to claims that Sarah was living in a shack. Another claim that she was uneducated was false – she was attending the local school in Taft. Moreover, during the discussion, Sarah’s father agreed that once she was a few months older, he would allow her to leave home to attend a more prestigious institution elsewhere.The Defender articles had also expressed consternation regarding the handling of Sarah’s money, and asserted that she had been assigned a white guardian who was getting a “fabulous sum each year” but only allowing Sarah “a few dollars each month”. At that time in Oklahoma, it was standard to assign guardians to look after the assets of wealthy non-white children. They usually took the form of white businessmen and, alas, many of them did swindle their young charges. However, Leahy had already garnered a reputation for taking action against such grafters and sought to reassure DuBois on this point: "As to this ward having a white Guardian, this is true. The parents themselves selected him, his name being T J Porter, cattleman and neighbor of this family, who has been their benefactor for years and long before there was any possibility of their ever having any money." Most of Sarah’s money was placed in investments.In the autumn of 1914, Sarah and her older sister Rebecca traveled to the Tuskegee Institute in Alabama, where they were enrolled in its elementary school. From there, they went on to Fisk University in Tennessee and that’s where they were when the Rector family quietly relocated to a substantial house on East 12th Street of Kansas City, Missouri. Often referred to as the “Sarah Rector Mansion," it was actually owned by Sarah’s mother but was home to the entire close-knit Rector clan. Rose Rector - Sarah Rector's mother ( With Permission of Debbie Brown)When Sarah turned 21 in 1922, she was finally able to manage her own wealth. She quickly developed a taste for life’s finer things according to her nieces. Debbie Brown told me that “we had a store here in the downtown area where Blacks could not shop. It was Emery, Bird, Thayer. And they would lock their doors up and close early to allow her to come down there and shop. They also would also take clothes and stuff to the Rector Mansion for her to try on.” Her nieces also laughed about their aunt's love of cars. Apparently Sarah “constantly bought cars cos she and Uncle Alfred kept wrecking them. She’d just go buy another one." Sarah also apparently loved to party and adored music, so she must have thoroughly enjoyed living in one of the hottest jazz scenes in the country. Among the big name musicians she entertained at the Rector Mansion were Duke Ellington and Count Basie. Sarah Rector with her first husband Kenneth Campbell( With permission of Debbie Brown)Sarah married twice. She was 20 when she and her first husband wed. The couple had three sons before going their separate ways after around seven years. She married her second husband – a Kansas City restaurant owner – in 1934 and they were together until she died. And although the 1929 Wall Street Crash apparently caused her to lose a lot of money, she nonetheless remained comfortable for the rest of her life.Money can often be the cause of deep rifts between people, but Sarah remained very close with her family. Her nieces recalled that when Sarah purchased a farm, all of the Rectors would spent time there: “she had a great big old garden and all the adults that went out, they helped with the garden and planted stuff. It wasn’t differentiated that it was her farm. It was a farm where we all went and we just had a good time."When Sarah died in 1967, Donna was 12 and Rosina and Debbie were in their late teens. As mentioned earlier, that’s when they began to grasp how exceptional their aunt’s life had been. At the same time however, they were warned against exploring it too deeply, at least with regard to one aspect, as Debbie recalls: "After she passed, I remember my mum and our uncle going to Oklahoma a lot. And they came back one time and got all of us together and said ‘whatever you hear about Oklahoma or whatever is down there, leave it alone. It’s dangerous, it’s not worth it.' And my mum told us some of the story about the Sells children. We truly believe that my grandmother moved everybody up here to Kansas City just from the fear of being blown up because of the money. That’s why my mum was: ‘just don’t go down there,’ my uncle: ‘don’t go down there.' After they passed, just going down there for genealogy and stuff, the three of us, my oldest brother’s like ‘you don’t need to be going down there. Momma told you don’t go down there talking about you’re a Rector,' and that was only 10 years, 15 years ago." So the nieces have largely steered clear of Oklahoma, although Sarah is buried here in Taft, very close to where she grew up. But while they avoid that part of their aunt’s story, they are concerned about misinformation spread regarding other aspects of Sarah’s life, including her physical self. Sarah Rector with a brother-in-law( With Permission of Debbie Brown)Currently if you search for Sarah Rector online, two black and white images repeatedly surface. One is a full length shot of a solemn girl aged around 12 years. Her hair is in pigtails, she’s wearing a plaid dress, and her right hand is holding onto a chair. The other is a head shot of a young woman. Her hair is center-parted and seems to be plaited on top of her head. She’s wearing a dark blouse or dress and there's some pale lace and a bow around the collar. Yet Sarah’s nieces are adamant that neither of these photos are actually of their aunt. The name of the lady in the adult photo appears to be Callie House, a civil rights activist who was born over 50 years before Sarah. Certainly if you search for “Callie House” online, that image will come up. As for the other photo, the nieces’ mother told them years ago that the girl was not their aunt. The fact that many people believe that these two photos depict Sarah Rector is deeply frustrating to them: “It’s not our family. If our family’s going to be out there, at least have the right picture out there." (Debbie Brown kindly shared the three images of the actual Sarah which are included on this webpage, as well as the one of Sarah's mother.)Sarah Rector’s story is the last in the current series of How Curious. We’ll be back in the Autumn. In the meantime, you can find all the previous episodes on the KGOU site or wherever you get podcasts. My deep thanks to all of the contributors to this episode: Anita Arnold, Debbie Brown, Donna Brown-Thompkins, Rosina Graves, and Kathleen Watkins. Thanks also to Deidre Anderson, Cody Clark, and to John McGraw, who read the excerpts from Judge Leahy’s letter in the audio version of this story.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced and hosted by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music.If you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject that you’d like How Curious to cover, please email us at <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>. We’d love to hear from you.Subscribe to How Curious wherever you get podcasts.*This is amended from the original headline which read "The Richest Black Colored Girl in America".(The audio version of this story refers to the The African American History Is AMERICAN History’s video about Sarah Rector which is called "<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k69IbCaf58&amp;t=7s" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Sarah Rector: 'The Richest Colored Girl in the World</a>'").

How did a young Oklahoman become known as "The Richest Black Girl in America"*?

Mugshots of Murray Humphreys( With permission of Gus Russo)For decades, stories have circulated about a Chicago gangster living in rural Norman, OK. I’m Rachel Hopkin and although the bucolic landscape just a few miles from Lake Thunderbird seems a world away from the Windy City's violent underworld, in this How Curious episode, I investigate how the two are linked by a man whose life was split not only between the two places but, it seems, between two personalities.I heard about this story from a friend of a friend. Actually, I heard about it from KGOU's Program Director, Jim Johnson, and he put me in touch put me with Larry Polk. Polk is a lifelong Oklahoma resident and told me that he remembers hearing rumors of the mafia in Brendle Corner – a property close to the intersection of State Highway 9 and 192nd Avenue – when he was in school in Norman back in the 1960s. “I always heard these things but I never could find anyone who knew anything about it. So one time I ran into this man and his name was Ernie Brendle”. Brendle was working as a loss adjustor. “And I said ‘I hope it’s not offensive, but I have always heard about the mafia in Brendle Corner. Is it true’? And he said ‘Yes. He was my uncle – Murray The Camel Humphreys’”.Humphreys went by many other names too – such as “The Hump” and “Curly”. But he was born Llewelyn Morris Humphreys in 1899. Gus Russo wrote extensively about him in The Outfit – his book about the powerful organised crime cartel of the same name. Russo told me that Humphreys was the son of dirt poor Welsh immigrants and was "turning into a juvenile delinquent. But he was also brilliant. Everyone who ever met him knew he was different, that he had a real brain”.  Humphreys as a young man( With Permission of Gus Russo)Despite his illicit escapades, many found Humphreys both personable and exceptional. In 1913, during one of his many early arrests, he came before a judge who evidently saw potential in him. According to Russo, this man - Judge Murray - told the young offender "to read law books, maybe become a lawyer. For the rest of his life, he buried himself in all the big thick law textbooks, just looking for loopholes obviously. He loved it”. Humphreys was so grateful for the judge’s advice that he changed his name to Murray in his honor. Around a decade later, Humphreys evidently made a good impression on another man - the ruthless Al Capone - despite the unprepossessing circumstances in which the pair met. Larry Polk heard about this from Humphreys’ nephew, Ernie Brendle. Apparently, Humphreys had "hijacked a load of liquor that Capone owned and got caught. Usually that was a death sentence. So they brought him before Capone, and he was so likeable and so knowledgeable that Capone hired him on”. Humphreys became an essential member of Capone’s Syndicate, and is rumored to have had some sort of a role in the St Valentine’s Day Massacre. But unlike some mobsters, Humphreys purposefully maintained a low profile.The Capone meeting was an important turning point in the young man’s professional life. Gus Russo told me how it had been preceded by on in his personal life a few years earlier:In 1921, he was nabbed in a burglary (which he was doing many of) and he went on the run or “on the lam” as they call it. He was going to hide out with his brother, and his brother – for reasons I don’t know – had already settled down in Little Axe, Oklahoma. While he was there, he took a job as a Victrola salesman (people today probably have no what that is, but it’s like a record player). This is probably the only straight job Curly ever had. While going door to door as a salesman, he meets the woman who would become the love of his life, who was a native of Norman, half Cherokee. Her name was Clementine – Mary Clementine Brendle – or ‘Clemi’. She was a very pretty young girl and she was brilliant. According to legend, she had a photographic memory. They got married. And she was so bright that she became his accountant and she did it a lot just by memory.And that’s saying something given the amounts of money she would end up managing.   Murray and Clemmie Humphreys( With permission of Gus Russo)After Capone was imprisoned for tax evasion in 1931, the young men who had been working for him emerged as the aforementioned Outfit. Humphreys became part of its “senior management” and was even its interim boss for a while in the 30s, despite having no Italian heritage. With the prohibition era now over, they needed new ways to make money. Humphreys is credited masterminding various strategies, among them union racketeering i.e. using union power to extort business bosses. Russo explained how this worked:Curly realised that they couldn’t control companies from the top, but they could control companies from the bottom, be it the truckers’ union, or the laundry union, or the milk union, or the linen union, whatever. First you’d have to take over the unions and that could be ugly. They would literally come in with machine guns into the union meetings and threaten people’s lives if they didn’t let them take it over. But once you had them, then the executives had to answer to you because you could strike whenever you want. It was crazy. What they were doing was is they were playing both sides against the middle. They would tell the workers “we’re going to take care of you and make sure you get good wages and everything”, so the workers were cool with it. And then they’d go to the executives and say “if you pay us, we’ll keep our demands very low and not ask for wages for our people, but we won’t tell them that”. So they were screwing both of them.To give you some idea of the Outfit’s tactics, during the 16 months that they were targeting the laundries, over 150 shops were bombed. When they finally won, the laundry business became central to Humphrey’s plans. In fact, Larry Polk told me that this was how the expression laundering the money came about, as "what they were doing was taking the money from other things that were illegal and running them through the laundry business to ‘launder the money’”.  Humphreys at sea(With permission of Gus Russo )Aside from presiding over the union racketeering and other money-making schemes, Russo said that Humphreys was also making good use of his legal knowledge.One of the things he studied and learned about was the fifth amendment, the right to not incriminate yourself in a court room, he realised you could also use it in front of congress. That had never been done before. In fact, when congressional hearings on organised crime would happen, the Chicago guys would plead the fifth and the committee members would say ‘you can’t do that’ and Curly would interrupt and say ‘yes, I think we can’, and he was always proven right’.Given the high pressure of his life in Chicago, it’s small wonder that Humphreys needed a place to escape to and he found it in rural Norman, OK, close to where Clemi had grown up. The couple and their daughter Luella lived in a handsome though unostentatious stone and brick house just across the way Brendle Corner. It’s now owned by retired Norman Fire Captain, Jay Williams, who was kind enough to show me around. We were both very taken by the beautiful interior wood walls. When I asked Jay if he knew what the wood was, he said “No, but it has to be an expensive kind, just for it to sit there 100 years and not peel or warp or anything, it had to be high dollar”. He went on to say that from what he’d heard, when Humphreys “was here, it was his family time. They would come here and relax and I don’t think there was any nefarious stuff that went on here”.  The former rural Norman home of Murray Humphreys and family(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)Gus Russo is of the same mind: “Murray had, in my opinion, sort of a second life. It was like Clark Kent and Superman. He’d take his clothes off and become a Superman in Chicago and then go back to Norman and be a completely different person. Everybody loved him. A lot of people didn’t even know he was a gangster”. That also chimes with what Larry Polk learned: “He was known for passing out silver dollars to people who were in need. He also gathered up turkeys at Thanksgiving and passed them out. He was really, really fond of the Native Americans out in the Brendle Corner area. Any time he hired one of them, he paid them really, really well”.  The living room of Humphreys' former Norman home today(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)One of the luxuries at the Humphreys property was a large swimming pool. It’s since been filled in but Jay showed me where it had been. Larry Polk remembered Ernie Brendle telling him a story about it being built: “It was a concrete swimming pool and when the cement was drying, Humphreys embedded silver dollars in it. And he used to get a huge kick watching people trying to go down there and get those silver dollars. No one could ever do it but they always tried”. Those silver dollars were long gone by the time Jay bought the property, but during the decades that it belonged to Humphreys, the family spent a great deal of time here. At some point, Humphreys and Clemi divorced and he married a much younger woman. Yet the two stayed friends and Humphreys continued to visit her at the house, including during the run up to the 1960 presidential race between Nixon and Kennedy. Polk recalled: "Ernie told me he was at the house when the day that the call came in from Chicago. They said ‘we’re backing JFK’. And he said usually he was fun and all of a sudden, he got really mad, and he was yelling 'no, no. We can’t do that. Joe Kennedy is a double crosser, we’ll get double crossed on this’. He went on and on and finally they said ‘well, the decision’s been made’. He said ‘OK’, and that’s what he did".Humphreys returned to Chicago and went to work. But he was proved right. Joe Kennedy had promised The Outfit that if they supported his son, they’d be left in peace. However once the election was done, organised crime became the Department of Justice’s primary focus under the Kennedy administration. Actually, Humphreys had been under surveillance by the FBI for decades, but had mostly managed to avoid getting into real trouble. In fact, he seems to have charmed its agents in the same way he charmed most other people he came across, at least according to another story passed to Polk by Ernie Brendle: "Humphreys was in Chicago and the driver said ‘the FBI is following us’. He said ‘okay. Stop at the next stop light. I’m going to go back and talk to them’. So he gets out of the car and goes back and he asks the guys ‘you guys FBI?’ Yes. ‘You following me?’. Yes. ‘Well, why don’t I get in with you and I’ll just sent my guy home’. Okay. That’s great. And he hopped in they took him everywhere they needed to go. They said he even bought them lunch".However, by the mid 1960s, things had become a lot more serious. Humphreys was being pursued to appear before a grand jury in Chicago. He was arrested at the Norman railway station and taken back there. Once there and after his bail had been posted, Humphreys went to his apartment in the city. That's where he was on Thanksgiving Day of 1965, when more FBI agents turned up with a new arrest warrant. According to Polk, Humphreys “had a .38 in his hand, so they had to wrestle that away from him. And they got a key to his safe out of his pocket which greatly upset him. He had a heart condition anyway”. Again, Humphreys made bail and returned to his flat. Later that evening, Polk said, his brother found him. "He had been vacuuming and had fallen over dead”. Humphreys was 66 years old.  The Humphreys Mausoleum(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)Humphreys' body was cremated and his ashes were taken back to the rural Oklahoma which he had so loved and where a mausoleum was built. It’s quite a way from the house and Jay doesn’t own the land it stands on as the original Humphreys’ property has since been parcelled out into numerous different lots. It’s a substantial reddish marble block. Originally the only name engraved on it was Humphreys. Now it has Brendle Humphreys Brady – Brendle for Clemi, and Brady was the married name of their daughter, who died in 1992. Gus Russo(Brendan J Kennedy /  Gus Russo)So an extraordinary and complex man, who, for all his likeability, could be merciless, as Gus Russo confirmed: "There certainly was a time in his life during the Capone years when he could have people killed. Either he killed them or he could have them killed. If there were union people who crossed the mob, Curly would have them killed. And it wasn’t often, it wasn’t like that was his stock in trade. He probably didn’t like doing it. But yeah, he was not a great guy".My thanks to Gus Russo, Larry Polk, and Jay Williams for their participation in this episode. Thanks also to Kim and Gene Dick and Regina Howell.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced and hosted by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music.If you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject that you’d like How Curious to cover, please email us at curious@kgou.org. 

Mugshots of Murray Humphreys( With permission of Gus Russo)For decades, stories have circulated about a Chicago gangster living in rural Norman, OK. I’m Rachel Hopkin and although the bucolic landscape just a few miles from Lake Thunderbird seems a world away from the Windy City's violent underworld, in this How Curious episode, I investigate how the two are linked by a man whose life was split not only between the two places but, it seems, between two personalities.I heard about this story from a friend of a friend. Actually, I heard about it from KGOU's Program Director, Jim Johnson, and he put me in touch put me with Larry Polk. Polk is a lifelong Oklahoma resident and told me that he remembers hearing rumors of the mafia in Brendle Corner – a property close to the intersection of State Highway 9 and 192nd Avenue – when he was in school in Norman back in the 1960s. “I always heard these things but I never could find anyone who knew anything about it. So one time I ran into this man and his name was Ernie Brendle”. Brendle was working as a loss adjustor. “And I said ‘I hope it’s not offensive, but I have always heard about the mafia in Brendle Corner. Is it true’? And he said ‘Yes. He was my uncle – Murray The Camel Humphreys’”.Humphreys went by many other names too – such as “The Hump” and “Curly”. But he was born Llewelyn Morris Humphreys in 1899. Gus Russo wrote extensively about him in The Outfit – his book about the powerful organised crime cartel of the same name. Russo told me that Humphreys was the son of dirt poor Welsh immigrants and was "turning into a juvenile delinquent. But he was also brilliant. Everyone who ever met him knew he was different, that he had a real brain”. Humphreys as a young man( With Permission of Gus Russo)Despite his illicit escapades, many found Humphreys both personable and exceptional. In 1913, during one of his many early arrests, he came before a judge who evidently saw potential in him. According to Russo, this man - Judge Murray - told the young offender "to read law books, maybe become a lawyer. For the rest of his life, he buried himself in all the big thick law textbooks, just looking for loopholes obviously. He loved it”. Humphreys was so grateful for the judge’s advice that he changed his name to Murray in his honor. Around a decade later, Humphreys evidently made a good impression on another man - the ruthless Al Capone - despite the unprepossessing circumstances in which the pair met. Larry Polk heard about this from Humphreys’ nephew, Ernie Brendle. Apparently, Humphreys had "hijacked a load of liquor that Capone owned and got caught. Usually that was a death sentence. So they brought him before Capone, and he was so likeable and so knowledgeable that Capone hired him on”. Humphreys became an essential member of Capone’s Syndicate, and is rumored to have had some sort of a role in the St Valentine’s Day Massacre. But unlike some mobsters, Humphreys purposefully maintained a low profile.The Capone meeting was an important turning point in the young man’s professional life. Gus Russo told me how it had been preceded by on in his personal life a few years earlier:In 1921, he was nabbed in a burglary (which he was doing many of) and he went on the run or “on the lam” as they call it. He was going to hide out with his brother, and his brother – for reasons I don’t know – had already settled down in Little Axe, Oklahoma. While he was there, he took a job as a Victrola salesman (people today probably have no what that is, but it’s like a record player). This is probably the only straight job Curly ever had. While going door to door as a salesman, he meets the woman who would become the love of his life, who was a native of Norman, half Cherokee. Her name was Clementine – Mary Clementine Brendle – or ‘Clemi’. She was a very pretty young girl and she was brilliant. According to legend, she had a photographic memory. They got married. And she was so bright that she became his accountant and she did it a lot just by memory.And that’s saying something given the amounts of money she would end up managing. Murray and Clemmie Humphreys( With permission of Gus Russo)After Capone was imprisoned for tax evasion in 1931, the young men who had been working for him emerged as the aforementioned Outfit. Humphreys became part of its “senior management” and was even its interim boss for a while in the 30s, despite having no Italian heritage. With the prohibition era now over, they needed new ways to make money. Humphreys is credited masterminding various strategies, among them union racketeering i.e. using union power to extort business bosses. Russo explained how this worked:Curly realised that they couldn’t control companies from the top, but they could control companies from the bottom, be it the truckers’ union, or the laundry union, or the milk union, or the linen union, whatever. First you’d have to take over the unions and that could be ugly. They would literally come in with machine guns into the union meetings and threaten people’s lives if they didn’t let them take it over. But once you had them, then the executives had to answer to you because you could strike whenever you want. It was crazy. What they were doing was is they were playing both sides against the middle. They would tell the workers “we’re going to take care of you and make sure you get good wages and everything”, so the workers were cool with it. And then they’d go to the executives and say “if you pay us, we’ll keep our demands very low and not ask for wages for our people, but we won’t tell them that”. So they were screwing both of them.To give you some idea of the Outfit’s tactics, during the 16 months that they were targeting the laundries, over 150 shops were bombed. When they finally won, the laundry business became central to Humphrey’s plans. In fact, Larry Polk told me that this was how the expression laundering the money came about, as "what they were doing was taking the money from other things that were illegal and running them through the laundry business to ‘launder the money’”. Humphreys at sea(With permission of Gus Russo )Aside from presiding over the union racketeering and other money-making schemes, Russo said that Humphreys was also making good use of his legal knowledge.One of the things he studied and learned about was the fifth amendment, the right to not incriminate yourself in a court room, he realised you could also use it in front of congress. That had never been done before. In fact, when congressional hearings on organised crime would happen, the Chicago guys would plead the fifth and the committee members would say ‘you can’t do that’ and Curly would interrupt and say ‘yes, I think we can’, and he was always proven right’.Given the high pressure of his life in Chicago, it’s small wonder that Humphreys needed a place to escape to and he found it in rural Norman, OK, close to where Clemi had grown up. The couple and their daughter Luella lived in a handsome though unostentatious stone and brick house just across the way Brendle Corner. It’s now owned by retired Norman Fire Captain, Jay Williams, who was kind enough to show me around. We were both very taken by the beautiful interior wood walls. When I asked Jay if he knew what the wood was, he said “No, but it has to be an expensive kind, just for it to sit there 100 years and not peel or warp or anything, it had to be high dollar”. He went on to say that from what he’d heard, when Humphreys “was here, it was his family time. They would come here and relax and I don’t think there was any nefarious stuff that went on here”. The former rural Norman home of Murray Humphreys and family(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)Gus Russo is of the same mind: “Murray had, in my opinion, sort of a second life. It was like Clark Kent and Superman. He’d take his clothes off and become a Superman in Chicago and then go back to Norman and be a completely different person. Everybody loved him. A lot of people didn’t even know he was a gangster”. That also chimes with what Larry Polk learned: “He was known for passing out silver dollars to people who were in need. He also gathered up turkeys at Thanksgiving and passed them out. He was really, really fond of the Native Americans out in the Brendle Corner area. Any time he hired one of them, he paid them really, really well”. The living room of Humphreys' former Norman home today(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)One of the luxuries at the Humphreys property was a large swimming pool. It’s since been filled in but Jay showed me where it had been. Larry Polk remembered Ernie Brendle telling him a story about it being built: “It was a concrete swimming pool and when the cement was drying, Humphreys embedded silver dollars in it. And he used to get a huge kick watching people trying to go down there and get those silver dollars. No one could ever do it but they always tried”. Those silver dollars were long gone by the time Jay bought the property, but during the decades that it belonged to Humphreys, the family spent a great deal of time here. At some point, Humphreys and Clemi divorced and he married a much younger woman. Yet the two stayed friends and Humphreys continued to visit her at the house, including during the run up to the 1960 presidential race between Nixon and Kennedy. Polk recalled: "Ernie told me he was at the house when the day that the call came in from Chicago. They said ‘we’re backing JFK’. And he said usually he was fun and all of a sudden, he got really mad, and he was yelling 'no, no. We can’t do that. Joe Kennedy is a double crosser, we’ll get double crossed on this’. He went on and on and finally they said ‘well, the decision’s been made’. He said ‘OK’, and that’s what he did".Humphreys returned to Chicago and went to work. But he was proved right. Joe Kennedy had promised The Outfit that if they supported his son, they’d be left in peace. However once the election was done, organised crime became the Department of Justice’s primary focus under the Kennedy administration. Actually, Humphreys had been under surveillance by the FBI for decades, but had mostly managed to avoid getting into real trouble. In fact, he seems to have charmed its agents in the same way he charmed most other people he came across, at least according to another story passed to Polk by Ernie Brendle: "Humphreys was in Chicago and the driver said ‘the FBI is following us’. He said ‘okay. Stop at the next stop light. I’m going to go back and talk to them’. So he gets out of the car and goes back and he asks the guys ‘you guys FBI?’ Yes. ‘You following me?’. Yes. ‘Well, why don’t I get in with you and I’ll just sent my guy home’. Okay. That’s great. And he hopped in they took him everywhere they needed to go. They said he even bought them lunch".However, by the mid 1960s, things had become a lot more serious. Humphreys was being pursued to appear before a grand jury in Chicago. He was arrested at the Norman railway station and taken back there. Once there and after his bail had been posted, Humphreys went to his apartment in the city. That's where he was on Thanksgiving Day of 1965, when more FBI agents turned up with a new arrest warrant. According to Polk, Humphreys “had a .38 in his hand, so they had to wrestle that away from him. And they got a key to his safe out of his pocket which greatly upset him. He had a heart condition anyway”. Again, Humphreys made bail and returned to his flat. Later that evening, Polk said, his brother found him. "He had been vacuuming and had fallen over dead”. Humphreys was 66 years old. The Humphreys Mausoleum(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)Humphreys' body was cremated and his ashes were taken back to the rural Oklahoma which he had so loved and where a mausoleum was built. It’s quite a way from the house and Jay doesn’t own the land it stands on as the original Humphreys’ property has since been parcelled out into numerous different lots. It’s a substantial reddish marble block. Originally the only name engraved on it was Humphreys. Now it has Brendle Humphreys Brady – Brendle for Clemi, and Brady was the married name of their daughter, who died in 1992. Gus Russo(Brendan J Kennedy / Gus Russo)So an extraordinary and complex man, who, for all his likeability, could be merciless, as Gus Russo confirmed: "There certainly was a time in his life during the Capone years when he could have people killed. Either he killed them or he could have them killed. If there were union people who crossed the mob, Curly would have them killed. And it wasn’t often, it wasn’t like that was his stock in trade. He probably didn’t like doing it. But yeah, he was not a great guy".My thanks to Gus Russo, Larry Polk, and Jay Williams for their participation in this episode. Thanks also to Kim and Gene Dick and Regina Howell.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced and hosted by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music.If you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject that you’d like How Curious to cover, please email us at <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>.

How did rural Norman, Oklahoma, become a Chicago mobster's second home?

Spencer the bull calf. Picture taken shortly after his birth at the Mollie Spencer Farm( The Mollie Spencer Farm)I’m Rachel Hopkin from KGOU’s How Curious, the series dedicated to stories from around Oklahoma. The Texas Longhorn is so strongly associated with, er, Texas – not least because of UT’s famous  football team which is nicknamed after the bovine – that it came as news to me to learn that the Texas Longhorn breed actually owes its survival in large part to Oklahoma. Marianne and her new-born calf - Spencer( The Mollie Spencer Farm)The Mollie Spencer Farm is an educational establishment and animal sanctuary in Yukon, OK. When I visited a few months back, I was shown around by Emma Newberry-Davis and Milo Bardwell. Among the latest animals to take up residence there were a mother and son pair of Texas Longhorns called Marianne and Rusty. They had arrived  in the autumn of 2022, at which point, Marianne was pregnant again. Then, in January 2023, she gave birth to a beautiful Texas Longhorn bull calf who was named Spencer. Soon after, KGOU received a press release announcing the happy event. While it was delightful to hear of Spencer's arrival in and of itself, it was something else in the press release that caught our attention at KGOU. Emma explains:When we got the Longhorns, we got their Longhorn paperwork and through that we learned that Marianne had been part of the Wichita Wildlife Refuge herd. And then, we realised the reason that the Wichita herd exists is because the Longhorn was on the verge of going extinct. I believe it was the US government decided to make a herd, take them to the Refuge, and essentially try to preserve the breed.Again, like most people, the first place that comes to my mind when thinking Longhorn is Texas. It’s one of the most recognized symbols of the state. Yet while the fact that Oklahoma played a crucial role in saving the breed from extinction may not be that widely known generally, it is a familiar fact in Longhorn circles. For example, the website of the Texas Longhorn Breeders Association of America confirms that the Wichita herd was the first created with the sole purpose of their conservation.I therefore decided to visit the Refuge itself.  On arrival, I met  with Quinton Smith who works there and he took me out in the hope of finding some of their Texas Longhorn herd. Quinton said that they were usually pretty easy to find, but added the caveat the place is “a wildlife refuge. We don’t keep them caged up. They’re free to roam the entire 60,000 acres of the refuge and go find the best grass and the best grazing they can and use it”.  Quinton Smith with some of the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge's Texas Longhorns(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)Quinton told me that the Refuge receives around two million people a year, many of whom also go off looking Longhorns, and shared a note of caution:They’re not as docile as one might think . I worked with cattle at home. And when I got to the refuge, I thought that working with the Longhorn would be the same as working with any other breed. One day, we were sorting cows and calves and I jumped out and I wasn’t on the ground probably 10 second and this momma cow ran me up and out of the pen. And all the guys standing around – they’re like “Quinton. You cannot do that”. So they’ve got a higher temperament than some of the other breeds of cattle you’ve been with.A few minutes later, we struck gold: a herd numbering around 40-50, including many calves. We stayed well back so as not to disturb them and Quinton drew my attention to the their unique appearance:You see this black and white cow nursing this red and white calf. The pattern of speckles on them are about the same but the colors are totally different. The variations in the colors of the Texas Longhorn have been really neat to me. You see other breeds and all the cattle are red or all the cattle are black, or white. You just don’t get that with the Texas Longhorns. You get that menagerie of colors and break ups and spots and stripes and solids.To learn more about how this Longhorn herd came to be here, and about the Refuge itself, I went to its Visitor Center. From its introductory film, I learned that the place was founded in 1901, when President McKinley signed a proclamation setting aside 60,000 acres of what was then known as the OK Indian territory to serve as a forest and game preserve. Now called the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge, it ranks as one of the oldest preserves on earth.Donna Phillips is one of the Refuge’s longest serving volunteers. She told me that the Texas Longhorn descended from cattle which were brought to the north American continent in 1521 from Spain. The cattle were arrived in Mexico and moved up into south Texas. That original Texas herd consisted of 200 head and was the foundation for the Texas Longhorn which had emerged as a distinct breed by the mid 1800s and numbered in the millions.Dan McDonald is a Wildlife Biologist at the Refuge and explained that part of reason that the breed thrived is because it is remarkably hardy: “A Longhorn is pretty well self-sufficient. The more European type breeds need more hands-on … vaccinations; you might need to help them pull calves as they give birth. A Longhorn – you could put one out it a parking lot and it would do just fine”.It was because Longhorns were both so plentiful and robust that they became the primary stock of the cattle drives were common during the 19th century, many of which were more than 1000 miles long. It’s estimated that 10 million had been driven out of Texas by 1889. But that’s not why the Longhorn was almost extinct a few decades later. Instead it was because they were being so actively interbred with other types of cattle to produce a meatier animal, thereby diffusing the characteristics of a true to type Longhorn.By the mid 1920s, the plight of the Longhorn was well-recognised. A 1927 New York Times article describes the breed’s doom as being sealed. Thankfully that was the same year that Longhorn conservation got under way at the Refuge. A ranger at the Refuge called Earl Drummond is credited with the original idea. Once the 69th congress approved that $3000 be set aside to cover the costs of bringing a herd to the Wichita Mountains, things really got moving.Donna and Dan told me more. Apparently, Refuge personnel were sent to Texas where they surveyed around thirty thousand head and they selected the thirty that showed the strongest purest characteristic of the original Longhorn. In terms of the qualities they were seeking, these included the colors; their overall body characteristics – such as large bones, long back legs, little shorter forelegs, wide between the eyes, short neck, and long head. Dan said that they “even looked at the udders to make sure that they were large enough”. Their horn characteristics were also important. Away from the Refuge, many Texas Longhorns today are bred to have the longest, straightest horns possible. But the Wichita men were looking for particular kinds of curved formations.  Texas Longhorns at the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge(Dan McDonald /  Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge)Once the foundation herd had been selected, it was brought to the Refuge. The animals were branded and a controlled program of breeding begam. Donna told me that by rotation and record keeping they "eventually over time bred out all impurities” - i.e. any remaining traces of interbreeding with other types – “and we have the pure true pure breed Texas Longhorn now”.The size of the herd is controlled to ensure that there are never more cattle than the Refuge’s grassland can accommodate. Each year a selection is auctioned off. I was told that some buyers come to secure a little part of history, the WR (for Wichita Refuge) brand, and as true a pure Longhorn as possible. Others simply for the quality of Longhorn beef which - although it might be “very lean”, Dan told me, is also apparently “quite tasty”. Marianne and Spencer at the Mollie Spencer Farm(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)Which brings this story full circle back to the Mollie Spencer farm and its Wichita Refuge Longhorns descendants. Their original mother and son pair had belonged to an Oklahoma beef farmer who purchased WR cattle. But over time he found himself unable to continue in his line of work. Apparently, once he’d seen the affection the cattle had for each other, their intelligence, and how they cared for family and friends, he said: “I don’t see how you can send them off to be slaughtered”. With the help of an organization called Farm Sanctuary, all sixty of his herd were placed in new and forever homes across the country, including the Mollie Spencer Farm in Yukon. Marianne, Rusty, and now Spencer, are blessed.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced Rachel Hopkin. The editor Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music.Please don’t forget, if you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject which you’d like us to cover in How Curious, please email curious@kgou.org. USEFUL LINKShttps://molliespencerfarm.orghttps://www.fws.gov/refuge/wichita-mountains

Spencer the bull calf. Picture taken shortly after his birth at the Mollie Spencer Farm( The Mollie Spencer Farm)I’m Rachel Hopkin from KGOU’s How Curious, the series dedicated to stories from around Oklahoma. The Texas Longhorn is so strongly associated with, er, Texas – not least because of UT’s famous football team which is nicknamed after the bovine – that it came as news to me to learn that the Texas Longhorn breed actually owes its survival in large part to Oklahoma. Marianne and her new-born calf - Spencer( The Mollie Spencer Farm)The Mollie Spencer Farm is an educational establishment and animal sanctuary in Yukon, OK. When I visited a few months back, I was shown around by Emma Newberry-Davis and Milo Bardwell. Among the latest animals to take up residence there were a mother and son pair of Texas Longhorns called Marianne and Rusty. They had arrived in the autumn of 2022, at which point, Marianne was pregnant again. Then, in January 2023, she gave birth to a beautiful Texas Longhorn bull calf who was named Spencer. Soon after, KGOU received a press release announcing the happy event. While it was delightful to hear of Spencer's arrival in and of itself, it was something else in the press release that caught our attention at KGOU. Emma explains:When we got the Longhorns, we got their Longhorn paperwork and through that we learned that Marianne had been part of the Wichita Wildlife Refuge herd. And then, we realised the reason that the Wichita herd exists is because the Longhorn was on the verge of going extinct. I believe it was the US government decided to make a herd, take them to the Refuge, and essentially try to preserve the breed.Again, like most people, the first place that comes to my mind when thinking Longhorn is Texas. It’s one of the most recognized symbols of the state. Yet while the fact that Oklahoma played a crucial role in saving the breed from extinction may not be that widely known generally, it is a familiar fact in Longhorn circles. For example, the website of the <a href="https://www.tlbaa.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Texas Longhorn Breeders Association of America</a> confirms that the Wichita herd was the first created with the sole purpose of their conservation.I therefore decided to visit the Refuge itself. On arrival, I met with Quinton Smith who works there and he took me out in the hope of finding some of their Texas Longhorn herd. Quinton said that they were usually pretty easy to find, but added the caveat the place is “a wildlife refuge. We don’t keep them caged up. They’re free to roam the entire 60,000 acres of the refuge and go find the best grass and the best grazing they can and use it”. Quinton Smith with some of the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge's Texas Longhorns(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)Quinton told me that the Refuge receives around two million people a year, many of whom also go off looking Longhorns, and shared a note of caution:They’re not as docile as one might think . I worked with cattle at home. And when I got to the refuge, I thought that working with the Longhorn would be the same as working with any other breed. One day, we were sorting cows and calves and I jumped out and I wasn’t on the ground probably 10 second and this momma cow ran me up and out of the pen. And all the guys standing around – they’re like “Quinton. You cannot do that”. So they’ve got a higher temperament than some of the other breeds of cattle you’ve been with.A few minutes later, we struck gold: a herd numbering around 40-50, including many calves. We stayed well back so as not to disturb them and Quinton drew my attention to the their unique appearance:You see this black and white cow nursing this red and white calf. The pattern of speckles on them are about the same but the colors are totally different. The variations in the colors of the Texas Longhorn have been really neat to me. You see other breeds and all the cattle are red or all the cattle are black, or white. You just don’t get that with the Texas Longhorns. You get that menagerie of colors and break ups and spots and stripes and solids.To learn more about how this Longhorn herd came to be here, and about the Refuge itself, I went to its Visitor Center. From its introductory film, I learned that the place was founded in 1901, when President McKinley signed a proclamation setting aside 60,000 acres of what was then known as the OK Indian territory to serve as a forest and game preserve. Now called the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge, it ranks as one of the oldest preserves on earth.Donna Phillips is one of the Refuge’s longest serving volunteers. She told me that the Texas Longhorn descended from cattle which were brought to the north American continent in 1521 from Spain. The cattle were arrived in Mexico and moved up into south Texas. That original Texas herd consisted of 200 head and was the foundation for the Texas Longhorn which had emerged as a distinct breed by the mid 1800s and numbered in the millions.Dan McDonald is a Wildlife Biologist at the Refuge and explained that part of reason that the breed thrived is because it is remarkably hardy: “A Longhorn is pretty well self-sufficient. The more European type breeds need more hands-on … vaccinations; you might need to help them pull calves as they give birth. A Longhorn – you could put one out it a parking lot and it would do just fine”.It was because Longhorns were both so plentiful and robust that they became the primary stock of the cattle drives were common during the 19th century, many of which were more than 1000 miles long. It’s estimated that 10 million had been driven out of Texas by 1889. But that’s not why the Longhorn was almost extinct a few decades later. Instead it was because they were being so actively interbred with other types of cattle to produce a meatier animal, thereby diffusing the characteristics of a true to type Longhorn.By the mid 1920s, the plight of the Longhorn was well-recognised. A 1927 New York Times article describes the breed’s doom as being sealed. Thankfully that was the same year that Longhorn conservation got under way at the Refuge. A ranger at the Refuge called Earl Drummond is credited with the original idea. Once the 69th congress approved that $3000 be set aside to cover the costs of bringing a herd to the Wichita Mountains, things really got moving.Donna and Dan told me more. Apparently, Refuge personnel were sent to Texas where they surveyed around thirty thousand head and they selected the thirty that showed the strongest purest characteristic of the original Longhorn. In terms of the qualities they were seeking, these included the colors; their overall body characteristics – such as large bones, long back legs, little shorter forelegs, wide between the eyes, short neck, and long head. Dan said that they “even looked at the udders to make sure that they were large enough”. Their horn characteristics were also important. Away from the Refuge, many Texas Longhorns today are bred to have the longest, straightest horns possible. But the Wichita men were looking for particular kinds of curved formations. Texas Longhorns at the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge(Dan McDonald / Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge)Once the foundation herd had been selected, it was brought to the Refuge. The animals were branded and a controlled program of breeding begam. Donna told me that by rotation and record keeping they "eventually over time bred out all impurities” - i.e. any remaining traces of interbreeding with other types – “and we have the pure true pure breed Texas Longhorn now”.The size of the herd is controlled to ensure that there are never more cattle than the Refuge’s grassland can accommodate. Each year a selection is auctioned off. I was told that some buyers come to secure a little part of history, the WR (for Wichita Refuge) brand, and as true a pure Longhorn as possible. Others simply for the quality of Longhorn beef which - although it might be “very lean”, Dan told me, is also apparently “quite tasty”. Marianne and Spencer at the Mollie Spencer Farm(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)Which brings this story full circle back to the Mollie Spencer farm and its Wichita Refuge Longhorns descendants. Their original mother and son pair had belonged to an Oklahoma beef farmer who purchased WR cattle. But over time he found himself unable to continue in his line of work. Apparently, once he’d seen the affection the cattle had for each other, their intelligence, and how they cared for family and friends, he said: “I don’t see how you can send them off to be slaughtered”. With the help of an organization called <a href="https://www.farmsanctuary.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Farm Sanctuary</a>, all sixty of his herd were placed in new and forever homes across the country, including the Mollie Spencer Farm in Yukon. Marianne, Rusty, and now Spencer, are blessed.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced Rachel Hopkin. The editor Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music.Please don’t forget, if you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject which you’d like us to cover in How Curious, please email <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>. USEFUL LINKS<a href="https://molliespencerfarm.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://molliespencerfarm.org</a><a href="https://www.fws.gov/refuge/wichita-mountains" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.fws.gov/refuge/wichita-mountains</a>

How did Oklahoma save the Texas Longhorn?

John Clarence Karcher( Petroleum Museum)I’m Rachel Hopkin – the host and producer of How Curious – and this How Curious episode explores a momentous scientific breakthrough which took place in Oklahoma in the early 20s and continues to have worldwide consequences today. It was Oklahoma geophysicist Jan Dodson who suggested this subject. Jan emailed me back in February to let me know about an event that would shortly mark an extremely important but little-known part of our state’s history – how Oklahoma became the birthplace of reflection seismology.  Jan Dodson standing next to the Belle Isle Seismic Reflection monument( Seismic Reflection Centennial)The event was called the Seismic Reflection Centennial. It took place over three days in April and included a range of presentations plus a one-day field trip. It had originally been planned for April 2021, but Covid pushed the meeting by two years. The participants consisted largely of geophysicists and geologists at various stages of their careers, including many students. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not great on science, but Jan’s brief missive made it clear that the seismic reflection research and experiments carried out here in 1921 had been momentous.So what is reflection seismology? It is a methodology that uses ground vibrations to explore what lies beneath the earth’s crust. Since its invention in Oklahoma, it has generated untold economic wealth through its ability to locate sub-surface natural resources such as oil and gas. In addition, its principles have been deployed for many other important purposes. As we set off on the field trip, I asked Jan Dodson to outline the circumstances which precipitated this world-changing innovation."Oklahoma has been a huge producer of oil and natural gas historically. The Native Americans found oil and gas seeps around the Arbuckle and Wichita Mountains. At the time, they weren’t using it for gasoline, but they used it for medicine and all kinds of things like that. And then the internal combustion engine was developed and there was a demand for gasoline which is a refined product from oil and gas and so because there were seeps in Oklahoma, people began drilling."The early methods used to locate these resources were pretty rudimentary."They started drilling on what we call a “surface high” – a little high spot on the surface of the earth. It’s probably not even a hill, it’s maybe just 10 feet. When rocks are originally deposited, there is organic matter buried with them. And as more rocks accumulate on top, it gets compressed and hot. And so chemical changes happen and the organic matter that’s contained in those rocks begins to convert into oil and gas, into hydrocarbons. Hydrocarbons are lighter than the rocks and they begin percolating upwards molecule by molecule."  Seismic Reflection Centennial participants standing in from of a Hunton limestone outcrop in the Arbuckle Mountains(  Seismic Reflection Centennial)Think of cream rising to the top of milk. But it’s easy to use a spoon to scoop the cream off the top, whereas oil and gas are usually hidden below the earth’s surface. In order to find significant stores of them, you need to find places where reservoirs have formed in traps between two different layers of rock. These rock traps tend to follow certain formations, including the shape of a dome. And, Jan said, if the geology is a certain type of geology, that dome will be expressed slightly at the surface of the earth. So surveyors went out with their very basic survey equipment a hundred years ago and surveyed what we call a topographic high and they drilled there and sometimes they found oil and sometimes they didn’t."Since those topographic highs could be caused by host of other activity - including erosion - the success rate was pretty hit and miss. But as the 20th century brought with it an ever-increasing demand for hydrocarbons, researchers all around the world were working to find more reliable methods to access them, among them a young man named John Clarence Karcher. Karcher was born in Indiana in 1894. The family moved to Oklahoma when he was a child. He studied physics and electrical engineering at the University of Oklahoma and was working on his Ph.D. in Pennsylvania when the United States Bureau of Standards recruited him to help the military. As Jan explained: "During WWI, scientists were locating artillery shells and bombs by triangulation. They knew that that energy was traveling through the earth, and they were recording it at some distant location. And if you have three points around that explosion, you can locate where that explosion is."Karcher was one of the people involved in this effort and he learned a great deal in the process. Once the war was over and he’d completed his doctorate, he returned to work at the University of Oklahoma where he already had many supportive colleagues, including expert geologists who knew about what lies beneath the earth’s crust. It was an exciting time. Karcher believed that just as acoustic waves – which move through the air - helped pinpoint war activity, seismic waves – which move through the earth - could be used to locate sub-surface matter. Jan said, "Karcher knew that people were looking for oil and gas, and he was a young guy. Young kids sometimes have fabulous ideas, and he got this idea that you could use an energy source like an explosion and record the echoes at a surface location and map the subsurface of the earth."With colleagues from OU, Karcher’s first experiment took place on June 4th, 1921. A monument marking the event stands behind OKC’s Belle Isle Library building. This was the first stop of our field trip.  Historic postcard of Belle Isle areaJan talked about the location of the monument:"As far as I can tell, this area was a farm. John Clarence Karcher knew the owner of the farm. His notes say the first location was a mile and a half west of the Belle Isle amusement park, so that’s as close to the location as we know. The monument was placed here in 1971 when they celebrated the 50th anniversary. You can tell that they have lots of rock samples around the base of the monument and all of those samples represent oil and gas-producing formations in the area."The field trip was led by structural geologist, Molly Turko. After attendees had had time to admire the monument, Molly referred to the field trip’s accompanying guide which included talking points for each stop on the tour. One for this stop related to how seismic data is acquired. A knowledgeable attendee responded as follows: “There’s a source. The waves go down. They hit a contrast in acoustic impedance which is velocity and density. They come back and are recorded somewhere else at a receiver and then the processing is all the geometric corrections."This stuff was probably very basic for most people present, but it was new to me, so as we continued on the field trip, I asked Jan to tell me more. For example, what Karcher had used for the source – i.e. how was the initial sound being produced? And how was the information it sent captured?"They used a dynamite charge, and they had some kind of microphone that was attached into the ground with a spike so it could feel the ground motion. The microphones had a mirror attached and they had a light beaming on the mirror. And the mirror reflected the light onto photographic film that was advancing at a certain rate, so the light would expose the photographic film in the form of wiggles as that microphone wiggled up and down. To my mind, this was an ingenious contraption to record this."No kidding. My head was spinning. The Belle Isle experiment was promising. From the photographic films, it was clear that the method was indicating different layers of substance in the earth. This is because the rate at which sound travels through matter varies according to the type of matter. But since the Karcher team didn’t know exactly what rock layers were beneath Belle Isle, nor how thick they were, they had to organize a new experiment.For this, Karcher needed to find a location with a variety of subsurface rocks in uneven formations and which had already been measured and documented. He decided to look for a site within the Arbuckle Mountains, where he knew that there were many irregular rock layers which geologists had carefully mapped out. In fact, there are lots of places where drastically distorted rock layers are visible at surface level via outcrops. We looked at a number of them during the field trip.The so-called "Heart of the Arbuckles"(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)Then the final stop of the day took us very close to where that second and all-important seismic reflection had taken place. Molly Turko set up the scene: “We found the location through his publications. He said it was ‘along Vine’s Branch Creek which flowed along the base of an eastward plunging dome, capped by the Viola. Beds dipped to the east’."  Drawing of Arbuckle Mountain experiment by John Clarence Karcher( Jan Dodson)Molly pointed towards the direction of where the experiment occurred, though it was hidden from view by a ridge. Karcher chose an area beneath which geologists had already mapped out where and how the layers of Sylvan Shale, and Viola Limestone were formed, their changing thickness, and where they actually met. Though both rock layers dipped at angles, they did so at different rates. When the results of second experiment turned out to match up precisely with pre-existing maps and measurements of the area, Karcher knew that his idea had worked. It was a scientific triumph. Jan Dodson affirmed this: “By proving that this concept works, he was then able to map subsurface structures that were not evident from the surface of the earth. It’s literally a way to map the subsurface of the earth."  Looking in the direction of the second 1921 Seismic Reflection experiment, this time in the Arbuckle Mountains.(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)Ironically, Karcher’s breakthrough took place at a time when oil prices were low so it took a few years before his work began to reap economic benefits. 1928 was the year that the first productive oil wells drilled using reflection seismology. Countless others followed. Karcher became a successful businessman as well as scientist and died in 1978. Meanwhile, the seismic reflection methodology he invented has evolved exponentially. It still provides the basic means of locating oil and gas and has also developed in many other directions. This was evident in some of the research that was presented in poster format back at the OKC meeting.One of the people I met in the poster room was Silas Adeolawa Samuel. He is a PhD student at Oklahoma State. His poster explained how his research is blending reflection seismology with environmental conservation. As he explained: “We need to find ways to try to reduce the effects of climate change so one of the ways my research is trying to fix that is by finding storage sites in the underground or in rocks where can store captured CO2 from the atmosphere."Bobby Buist is studying for his PhD at OU. His poster described his research which is using seismic data to explore the ancient history of a buried valley in the southwestern part of Oklahoma valley. He said that it’s “generally agreed that there’s glaciers and glaciation at the pole of the earth. However, if this valley – which is at a higher elevation – was made by a glacier, that’s sort of counterintuitive to what people know as of right now. So if it’s made by a glacier, it reshapes our understanding of earth’s history."In other words, the work conducted by Karcher and his team in Oklahoma back in 1921 remains extraordinarily relevant today. Jan Dodson summarized this for me:"It’s used in environmental work. They using related technology for archaeological work - Native American burial grounds. They’re using it in Tulsa, OK, to find mass graves from the race massacre up there. Ultrasounds, which we routinely use for medical tests - that is the exact same technology that Karcher developed. But it’s on millimeters instead of miles. It has wide, wide, widespread use to all kinds of modern life."I’m so grateful to geophysicist Jan Dodson for bringing such an important Oklahoma story to the attention of How Curious. Special thanks to Professors James Knapp and Brett Carpenter, as well as to the many other participants of the Seismic Reflection Centennial. Thanks also to Daniel Tureck and Nyk Wynes.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced and hosted by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music.If you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject that you’d like How Curious to cover, please email us at curious@kgou.org. 

John Clarence Karcher( Petroleum Museum)I’m Rachel Hopkin – the host and producer of How Curious – and this How Curious episode explores a momentous scientific breakthrough which took place in Oklahoma in the early 20s and continues to have worldwide consequences today. It was Oklahoma geophysicist Jan Dodson who suggested this subject. Jan emailed me back in February to let me know about an event that would shortly mark an extremely important but little-known part of our state’s history – how Oklahoma became the birthplace of reflection seismology. Jan Dodson standing next to the Belle Isle Seismic Reflection monument( Seismic Reflection Centennial)The event was called the Seismic Reflection Centennial. It took place over three days in April and included a range of presentations plus a one-day field trip. It had originally been planned for April 2021, but Covid pushed the meeting by two years. The participants consisted largely of geophysicists and geologists at various stages of their careers, including many students. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not great on science, but Jan’s brief missive made it clear that the seismic reflection research and experiments carried out here in 1921 had been momentous.So what is reflection seismology? It is a methodology that uses ground vibrations to explore what lies beneath the earth’s crust. Since its invention in Oklahoma, it has generated untold economic wealth through its ability to locate sub-surface natural resources such as oil and gas. In addition, its principles have been deployed for many other important purposes. As we set off on the field trip, I asked Jan Dodson to outline the circumstances which precipitated this world-changing innovation."Oklahoma has been a huge producer of oil and natural gas historically. The Native Americans found oil and gas seeps around the Arbuckle and Wichita Mountains. At the time, they weren’t using it for gasoline, but they used it for medicine and all kinds of things like that. And then the internal combustion engine was developed and there was a demand for gasoline which is a refined product from oil and gas and so because there were seeps in Oklahoma, people began drilling."The early methods used to locate these resources were pretty rudimentary."They started drilling on what we call a “surface high” – a little high spot on the surface of the earth. It’s probably not even a hill, it’s maybe just 10 feet. When rocks are originally deposited, there is organic matter buried with them. And as more rocks accumulate on top, it gets compressed and hot. And so chemical changes happen and the organic matter that’s contained in those rocks begins to convert into oil and gas, into hydrocarbons. Hydrocarbons are lighter than the rocks and they begin percolating upwards molecule by molecule." Seismic Reflection Centennial participants standing in from of a Hunton limestone outcrop in the Arbuckle Mountains( Seismic Reflection Centennial)Think of cream rising to the top of milk. But it’s easy to use a spoon to scoop the cream off the top, whereas oil and gas are usually hidden below the earth’s surface. In order to find significant stores of them, you need to find places where reservoirs have formed in traps between two different layers of rock. These rock traps tend to follow certain formations, including the shape of a dome. And, Jan said, if the geology is a certain type of geology, that dome will be expressed slightly at the surface of the earth. So surveyors went out with their very basic survey equipment a hundred years ago and surveyed what we call a topographic high and they drilled there and sometimes they found oil and sometimes they didn’t."Since those topographic highs could be caused by host of other activity - including erosion - the success rate was pretty hit and miss. But as the 20th century brought with it an ever-increasing demand for hydrocarbons, researchers all around the world were working to find more reliable methods to access them, among them a young man named John Clarence Karcher. Karcher was born in Indiana in 1894. The family moved to Oklahoma when he was a child. He studied physics and electrical engineering at the University of Oklahoma and was working on his Ph.D. in Pennsylvania when the United States Bureau of Standards recruited him to help the military. As Jan explained: "During WWI, scientists were locating artillery shells and bombs by triangulation. They knew that that energy was traveling through the earth, and they were recording it at some distant location. And if you have three points around that explosion, you can locate where that explosion is."Karcher was one of the people involved in this effort and he learned a great deal in the process. Once the war was over and he’d completed his doctorate, he returned to work at the University of Oklahoma where he already had many supportive colleagues, including expert geologists who knew about what lies beneath the earth’s crust. It was an exciting time. Karcher believed that just as acoustic waves – which move through the air - helped pinpoint war activity, seismic waves – which move through the earth - could be used to locate sub-surface matter. Jan said, "Karcher knew that people were looking for oil and gas, and he was a young guy. Young kids sometimes have fabulous ideas, and he got this idea that you could use an energy source like an explosion and record the echoes at a surface location and map the subsurface of the earth."With colleagues from OU, Karcher’s first experiment took place on June 4th, 1921. A monument marking the event stands behind OKC’s Belle Isle Library building. This was the first stop of our field trip. Historic postcard of Belle Isle areaJan talked about the location of the monument:"As far as I can tell, this area was a farm. John Clarence Karcher knew the owner of the farm. His notes say the first location was a mile and a half west of the Belle Isle amusement park, so that’s as close to the location as we know. The monument was placed here in 1971 when they celebrated the 50th anniversary. You can tell that they have lots of rock samples around the base of the monument and all of those samples represent oil and gas-producing formations in the area."The field trip was led by structural geologist, Molly Turko. After attendees had had time to admire the monument, Molly referred to the field trip’s accompanying guide which included talking points for each stop on the tour. One for this stop related to how seismic data is acquired. A knowledgeable attendee responded as follows: “There’s a source. The waves go down. They hit a contrast in acoustic impedance which is velocity and density. They come back and are recorded somewhere else at a receiver and then the processing is all the geometric corrections."This stuff was probably very basic for most people present, but it was new to me, so as we continued on the field trip, I asked Jan to tell me more. For example, what Karcher had used for the source – i.e. how was the initial sound being produced? And how was the information it sent captured?"They used a dynamite charge, and they had some kind of microphone that was attached into the ground with a spike so it could feel the ground motion. The microphones had a mirror attached and they had a light beaming on the mirror. And the mirror reflected the light onto photographic film that was advancing at a certain rate, so the light would expose the photographic film in the form of wiggles as that microphone wiggled up and down. To my mind, this was an ingenious contraption to record this."No kidding. My head was spinning. The Belle Isle experiment was promising. From the photographic films, it was clear that the method was indicating different layers of substance in the earth. This is because the rate at which sound travels through matter varies according to the type of matter. But since the Karcher team didn’t know exactly what rock layers were beneath Belle Isle, nor how thick they were, they had to organize a new experiment.For this, Karcher needed to find a location with a variety of subsurface rocks in uneven formations and which had already been measured and documented. He decided to look for a site within the Arbuckle Mountains, where he knew that there were many irregular rock layers which geologists had carefully mapped out. In fact, there are lots of places where drastically distorted rock layers are visible at surface level via outcrops. We looked at a number of them during the field trip.The so-called "Heart of the Arbuckles"(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)Then the final stop of the day took us very close to where that second and all-important seismic reflection had taken place. Molly Turko set up the scene: “We found the location through his publications. He said it was ‘along Vine’s Branch Creek which flowed along the base of an eastward plunging dome, capped by the Viola. Beds dipped to the east’." Drawing of Arbuckle Mountain experiment by John Clarence Karcher( Jan Dodson)Molly pointed towards the direction of where the experiment occurred, though it was hidden from view by a ridge. Karcher chose an area beneath which geologists had already mapped out where and how the layers of Sylvan Shale, and Viola Limestone were formed, their changing thickness, and where they actually met. Though both rock layers dipped at angles, they did so at different rates. When the results of second experiment turned out to match up precisely with pre-existing maps and measurements of the area, Karcher knew that his idea had worked. It was a scientific triumph. Jan Dodson affirmed this: “By proving that this concept works, he was then able to map subsurface structures that were not evident from the surface of the earth. It’s literally a way to map the subsurface of the earth." Looking in the direction of the second 1921 Seismic Reflection experiment, this time in the Arbuckle Mountains.(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)Ironically, Karcher’s breakthrough took place at a time when oil prices were low so it took a few years before his work began to reap economic benefits. 1928 was the year that the first productive oil wells drilled using reflection seismology. Countless others followed. Karcher became a successful businessman as well as scientist and died in 1978. Meanwhile, the seismic reflection methodology he invented has evolved exponentially. It still provides the basic means of locating oil and gas and has also developed in many other directions. This was evident in some of the research that was presented in poster format back at the OKC meeting.One of the people I met in the poster room was Silas Adeolawa Samuel. He is a PhD student at Oklahoma State. His poster explained how his research is blending reflection seismology with environmental conservation. As he explained: “We need to find ways to try to reduce the effects of climate change so one of the ways my research is trying to fix that is by finding storage sites in the underground or in rocks where can store captured CO2 from the atmosphere."Bobby Buist is studying for his PhD at OU. His poster described his research which is using seismic data to explore the ancient history of a buried valley in the southwestern part of Oklahoma valley. He said that it’s “generally agreed that there’s glaciers and glaciation at the pole of the earth. However, if this valley – which is at a higher elevation – was made by a glacier, that’s sort of counterintuitive to what people know as of right now. So if it’s made by a glacier, it reshapes our understanding of earth’s history."In other words, the work conducted by Karcher and his team in Oklahoma back in 1921 remains extraordinarily relevant today. Jan Dodson summarized this for me:"It’s used in environmental work. They using related technology for archaeological work - Native American burial grounds. They’re using it in Tulsa, OK, to find mass graves from the race massacre up there. Ultrasounds, which we routinely use for medical tests - that is the exact same technology that Karcher developed. But it’s on millimeters instead of miles. It has wide, wide, widespread use to all kinds of modern life."I’m so grateful to geophysicist Jan Dodson for bringing such an important Oklahoma story to the attention of How Curious. Special thanks to Professors James Knapp and Brett Carpenter, as well as to the many other participants of the Seismic Reflection Centennial. Thanks also to Daniel Tureck and Nyk Wynes.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced and hosted by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music.If you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject that you’d like How Curious to cover, please email us at <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>.

How did Oklahoma give birth to seismic reflection?

Jim Halsey with the performers and crew in Moscow(Gina Halsey / With permission of Jim Halsey)How Curious is dedicated to stories from around Oklahoma and I’m its host and producer, Rachel Hopkin. This How Curious story starts in Oklahoma but travels over five thousand miles away to the former Soviet Union. At its center is a man named Jim Halsey. Jim Halsey is – according to The Encyclopedia of Country Music – one of country music’s most influential business figures.  Rachel with Jim Halsey(Mark Furnas /  KGOU)I cannot describe Jim’s career in a nutshell because it’s just too big a nut, not least because he started working when he was in his late teens and is now 92 and still professionally active. This is as succinct as I can make it: Jim is an all-round music impresario – a talent manager, booking agent, creator of events, and much more. Among the stars he’s represented during his career are Roy Clark, Merle Haggard, The Judds, Reba McEntire, Willie Nelson, Roy Orbinson, Tammy Wynette, and Dwight Yoakum. And he’s done all this from his base in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Roy ClarkThere’s an exhibition dedicated to his work currently showing [as of May 2023] at the Historical Center of the nearby city of Wagoner. It’s full of memorabilia from events that Jim’s organised and stars that he’s worked with across the decades. However, for this episode, I focused on just one part of of his career. Mark Furnas – who works with Jim - took me to see the area of the exhibit that I was interested in. (By the way, Mark is himself an Oklahoma Blues Hall of Fame guitarist/songwriter.). Mark pointed out one particular photo to me. It featured Jim with country music legend Roy Clark (with whom Halsey worked for decades) and four Russian Cossacks, all of whom were all over one hundred years old. When I commented on how well the Cossacks looked given their age, Jim said say he’d asked them what their secret was. Their response was “Drink vodka every day. Keep your mouth shut”. Jim Halsey with Roy Clark and Russian Cossacks ( With permission of Jim Halsey)The picture was taken in Soviet-era Moscow during one of the country music tours of the former USSR that Jim Halsey put together in the 70s and 80. It was the era of the Cold War, though things were beginning to thaw somewhat.The thought of taking country music to the USSR sounded to me like a hugely ambitious venture fraught with challenges. But over and again, Jim has proved to be one of those people who can just get things done, no matter how daunting. He said the idea for it began when he was with Roy Clark at the Frontier Hotel in Las Vegas where was Roy was playing a series of shows. During some down time, the pair were watching the news. A group of Soviet dignitaries got off a plane in Seattle and were being interviewed. They said “you’re enjoying your trip to American. Is there any place that you’re not going, that you’d hoped to go?”. And the leader of the group said “well, yes. We’d have loved to gone to Las Vegas but we couldn’t get the arrangements made”. So Roy Clark and I looked at each other and both of us almost said at the same time: “Let’s invite them to Las Vegas and see our show”.Imagine the red tape! But Jim quickly cut through it. He contacted with the US State Department and plans were soon in place. Two days later the Soviet delegation arrived in Las Vegas. The costs of their trip were covered by Howard Hughes, owner The Frontier Hotel, and included some surprise gifts, as Jim recalled:The Howard Hughes people gave each one a sack of 25 cent pieces. Well, dignitaries were there to meet them, the mayor, and all that stuff. All of a sudden they’ve got that sack of quarters – they disperse over that casino. I thought “oh my gosh, we’ll never see them again”. They had the best time. They came to the show that night and afterwards Roy invited them all back to his dressing room. So Roy’s got his guitar out and they’re playing and everybody’s singing and having a good time. And when it’s over, the head of the Russian delegation said “Roy, we’d like to invite you to come and perform in the Soviet Union”. The only thing you could do, you were so honored, is say “yes”. We started our negotiations with the Russians in 1974.The arrangements certainly weren’t straightforward. Russian officials made numerous trips to ensure that the concerts would go smoothly. They asked that any songs referencing subjects which they deemed to be controversial - for example, Jesus or God - be cut. The whole thing was part of the US State Department’s Cultural Exchange Program. Joining Jim and Roy Clark on the tour were the Oak Ridge Boys.   The Oak Ridge BoysAfter a two day journey, they arrived at Moscow’s airport where they had to walk hundreds of feet from the plane to the terminal.It was 28 degrees below zero. You couldn’t even take pictures, your cameras froze up. And lined on either side of us, there must have been 3 or 4 hundred soldiers with Kalashnikovs. All of them had their finger on the trigger. And Roy looked over to me: “Halsey, what have you gotten us into”?The first concert had been due to take place in Moscow the following evening. However, at the last minute the location had been switched to Riga, Latvia and the Americans learned they’d  have to travel by train for a further 12 hours.By that time it must have been about 1 or 2 o’clock in the morning. There really were no compartments. They had a compartment for Roy and I and the rest of the band and that. The rest of it was like a cattle cart - no benches or anything. And they’re drinking vodka and eating salami and baloney, smelled like garlic in there. And one of those Russians had a guitar and started singing “I’m So Lonesome I Could Cry”, an old Hank Williams song. Our guys got their guitars out. It was a whole night of singing because the Russians knew a lot of those old Hank Williams, Ernest Tubbs songs. By the time we arrived in Riga, Latvia, we were right at home.Their first concert took that same evening. Everyone was exhausted.But you know how it gets when you get playing music. So Roy goes out. That audience was as cold as inside as out. They were sitting there with their arms folded and thinking “Okay, you Americans that are planning on bombing us any minute, entertain us”. Well, that’s what Roy did. Halfway through the first song, you could just see and feel that first audience relaxing into their chairs. This was one of the one of the most magical moments of my life. To see that there and watch that absolutely transform from an atmosphere of hate and distrust into a loving peaceful – well, the world does have some hope.  Roy Clark during the encore of the Riga concert(Kathy Gangwisch /  With Permission of Jim Halsey)It wasn’t just the audience present who got to hear Roy and the Oak Ridge Boys. That concert was also broadcast via satellite to all the Soviet Bloc countries. So were all of the other 19 shows they performed during their trip. In all, the tour was deemed a huge success both in the USSR and back home in the USA. For this Jim paid tribute to the performers involved.Roy Clark really was sensational. He also happened to be a big friendly guy with a big smile that when he shook your hand or hugged you or something, it was sincere. It was the same with The Oak Ridge Boys, they made so many friends; and their vocal harmonies – people loved those. [Overall, the tour] gave them trust and respect for who we were and what we were trying to do. It changed the attitudes towards the Americans. Not just among the 3000 people that were in the audience each night. We’re talking about a couple of hundred million that were watching on TV. Roy Clark and the Oak Ridge Boys were given credit for softening the atmosphere between the Soviets and the Americans. When we got home, we got a letter from every single senator in the US that indicated a good job that they had done.I recorded the material for this episode in spring 2023, over a year on from Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.  There was a sad irony to hearing Jim talk about the role music had played in softening Cold War relations while this actual war continues. When I asked Jim to share his thoughts regarding the current situation, he preferred not to speak directly about it, but instead said this: I’m a person of universal feelings and philosophies. So there are a lot of things that go on that I don’t like everywhere, and a lot of things that I do. And eventually it boils to the human being. I like what human beings do when they are operating from their highest point and that’s what music does.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced and hosted by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. In addition to the contributors featured in this episode, we’d like to thank Duane Allen, Betsy Brumley, Larry O’Dell, and Pixabay Sound Effects.If you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject that you’d like How Curious to cover, please email us at curious@kgou.org. 

Jim Halsey with the performers and crew in Moscow(Gina Halsey / With permission of Jim Halsey)How Curious is dedicated to stories from around Oklahoma and I’m its host and producer, Rachel Hopkin. This How Curious story starts in Oklahoma but travels over five thousand miles away to the former Soviet Union. At its center is a man named Jim Halsey. Jim Halsey is – according to The Encyclopedia of Country Music – one of country music’s most influential business figures. Rachel with Jim Halsey(Mark Furnas / KGOU)I cannot describe Jim’s career in a nutshell because it’s just too big a nut, not least because he started working when he was in his late teens and is now 92 and still professionally active. This is as succinct as I can make it: Jim is an all-round music impresario – a talent manager, booking agent, creator of events, and much more. Among the stars he’s represented during his career are Roy Clark, Merle Haggard, The Judds, Reba McEntire, Willie Nelson, Roy Orbinson, Tammy Wynette, and Dwight Yoakum. And he’s done all this from his base in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Roy ClarkThere’s an exhibition dedicated to his work currently showing [as of May 2023] at the Historical Center of the nearby city of Wagoner. It’s full of memorabilia from events that Jim’s organised and stars that he’s worked with across the decades. However, for this episode, I focused on just one part of of his career. Mark Furnas – who works with Jim - took me to see the area of the exhibit that I was interested in. (By the way, Mark is himself an Oklahoma Blues Hall of Fame guitarist/songwriter.). Mark pointed out one particular photo to me. It featured Jim with country music legend Roy Clark (with whom Halsey worked for decades) and four Russian Cossacks, all of whom were all over one hundred years old. When I commented on how well the Cossacks looked given their age, Jim said say he’d asked them what their secret was. Their response was “Drink vodka every day. Keep your mouth shut”. Jim Halsey with Roy Clark and Russian Cossacks ( With permission of Jim Halsey)The picture was taken in Soviet-era Moscow during one of the country music tours of the former USSR that Jim Halsey put together in the 70s and 80. It was the era of the Cold War, though things were beginning to thaw somewhat.The thought of taking country music to the USSR sounded to me like a hugely ambitious venture fraught with challenges. But over and again, Jim has proved to be one of those people who can just get things done, no matter how daunting. He said the idea for it began when he was with Roy Clark at the Frontier Hotel in Las Vegas where was Roy was playing a series of shows. During some down time, the pair were watching the news. A group of Soviet dignitaries got off a plane in Seattle and were being interviewed. They said “you’re enjoying your trip to American. Is there any place that you’re not going, that you’d hoped to go?”. And the leader of the group said “well, yes. We’d have loved to gone to Las Vegas but we couldn’t get the arrangements made”. So Roy Clark and I looked at each other and both of us almost said at the same time: “Let’s invite them to Las Vegas and see our show”.Imagine the red tape! But Jim quickly cut through it. He contacted with the US State Department and plans were soon in place. Two days later the Soviet delegation arrived in Las Vegas. The costs of their trip were covered by Howard Hughes, owner The Frontier Hotel, and included some surprise gifts, as Jim recalled:The Howard Hughes people gave each one a sack of 25 cent pieces. Well, dignitaries were there to meet them, the mayor, and all that stuff. All of a sudden they’ve got that sack of quarters – they disperse over that casino. I thought “oh my gosh, we’ll never see them again”. They had the best time. They came to the show that night and afterwards Roy invited them all back to his dressing room. So Roy’s got his guitar out and they’re playing and everybody’s singing and having a good time. And when it’s over, the head of the Russian delegation said “Roy, we’d like to invite you to come and perform in the Soviet Union”. The only thing you could do, you were so honored, is say “yes”. We started our negotiations with the Russians in 1974.The arrangements certainly weren’t straightforward. Russian officials made numerous trips to ensure that the concerts would go smoothly. They asked that any songs referencing subjects which they deemed to be controversial - for example, Jesus or God - be cut. The whole thing was part of the US State Department’s Cultural Exchange Program. Joining Jim and Roy Clark on the tour were the Oak Ridge Boys. The Oak Ridge BoysAfter a two day journey, they arrived at Moscow’s airport where they had to walk hundreds of feet from the plane to the terminal.It was 28 degrees below zero. You couldn’t even take pictures, your cameras froze up. And lined on either side of us, there must have been 3 or 4 hundred soldiers with Kalashnikovs. All of them had their finger on the trigger. And Roy looked over to me: “Halsey, what have you gotten us into”?The first concert had been due to take place in Moscow the following evening. However, at the last minute the location had been switched to Riga, Latvia and the Americans learned they’d have to travel by train for a further 12 hours.By that time it must have been about 1 or 2 o’clock in the morning. There really were no compartments. They had a compartment for Roy and I and the rest of the band and that. The rest of it was like a cattle cart - no benches or anything. And they’re drinking vodka and eating salami and baloney, smelled like garlic in there. And one of those Russians had a guitar and started singing “I’m So Lonesome I Could Cry”, an old Hank Williams song. Our guys got their guitars out. It was a whole night of singing because the Russians knew a lot of those old Hank Williams, Ernest Tubbs songs. By the time we arrived in Riga, Latvia, we were right at home.Their first concert took that same evening. Everyone was exhausted.But you know how it gets when you get playing music. So Roy goes out. That audience was as cold as inside as out. They were sitting there with their arms folded and thinking “Okay, you Americans that are planning on bombing us any minute, entertain us”. Well, that’s what Roy did. Halfway through the first song, you could just see and feel that first audience relaxing into their chairs. This was one of the one of the most magical moments of my life. To see that there and watch that absolutely transform from an atmosphere of hate and distrust into a loving peaceful – well, the world does have some hope. Roy Clark during the encore of the Riga concert(Kathy Gangwisch / With Permission of Jim Halsey)It wasn’t just the audience present who got to hear Roy and the Oak Ridge Boys. That concert was also broadcast via satellite to all the Soviet Bloc countries. So were all of the other 19 shows they performed during their trip. In all, the tour was deemed a huge success both in the USSR and back home in the USA. For this Jim paid tribute to the performers involved.Roy Clark really was sensational. He also happened to be a big friendly guy with a big smile that when he shook your hand or hugged you or something, it was sincere. It was the same with The Oak Ridge Boys, they made so many friends; and their vocal harmonies – people loved those. [Overall, the tour] gave them trust and respect for who we were and what we were trying to do. It changed the attitudes towards the Americans. Not just among the 3000 people that were in the audience each night. We’re talking about a couple of hundred million that were watching on TV. Roy Clark and the Oak Ridge Boys were given credit for softening the atmosphere between the Soviets and the Americans. When we got home, we got a letter from every single senator in the US that indicated a good job that they had done.I recorded the material for this episode in spring 2023, over a year on from Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. There was a sad irony to hearing Jim talk about the role music had played in softening Cold War relations while this actual war continues. When I asked Jim to share his thoughts regarding the current situation, he preferred not to speak directly about it, but instead said this: I’m a person of universal feelings and philosophies. So there are a lot of things that go on that I don’t like everywhere, and a lot of things that I do. And eventually it boils to the human being. I like what human beings do when they are operating from their highest point and that’s what music does.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced and hosted by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. In addition to the contributors featured in this episode, we’d like to thank Duane Allen, Betsy Brumley, Larry O’Dell, and Pixabay Sound Effects.If you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject that you’d like How Curious to cover, please email us at <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>.

How did an Oklahoma impresario take country music to the former USSR?

Pigeon and Pigeon Eye(Alberto Gandara /  Alberto Gandara)I'm Rachel Hopkin, the host and producer of How Curious. This episode is all about The American Pigeon Museum and Library which I visited recently. It's based in Oklahoma City's Adventure District, close to Remington Park. There I met up with its Associate Curator Lauren Gandara. Lauren told me that the Museum was founded in the early 70s and that its purpose is to teach the public about how important pigeons are in history, about the sport of pigeon racing, and about the amazing variety of pigeon breeds. Visitors at the American Pigeon Museum(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)The original board members chose to base the museum in Oklahoma City because of its central location (How Curious regulars may remember that this was also the case for The Morgan Horse Grand National and Championship). In 2014 , the Museum moved to a brand new and specially designed building which has different wings (no pun intended). In line with the Museum's purpose, one wing is dedicated to fancy pigeons – incredible creatures that look nothing like your typical greyish city pigeons; another is devoted to the sport of pigeon racing; and the third is all about pigeon history through the ages. This is where I began my tour. There I learned that earliest records of pigeons date back to around 3000 BC and the ancient Egyptians. Later, the bird became crucial to Julius Caesar’s empire-building ambitions. They were also used in ancient Greece, not least as a means of sending the results of the early Olympics back to the athletes’ home towns.The reason for the bird's place in history is because the homing pigeon has an almost preternatural ability to find its way home, even when released hundreds of miles away from its base. Alberto Gandara has been around pigeons all his life and is a longtime volunteer at the museum (and is also Lauren’s husband). I asked him how the bird is able to do this. He that it's still not fully understood but that it is "a combination of the earth’s magnetic field, the sun’s position, and olfactory senses come into play." Associate Curator Lauren Gandara with Fancy Pigeons(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)During the two World Wars, pigeons were often dropped by parachute over enemy lines so that the soldiers on the ground could use them to send messages back home. According to Alberto, “the enemy knew they were delivering messages and they were shooting at them. And there are famous birds that came home missing legs and eyes and still delivered messages that saved thousands and thousands of lives. Cher Ami was a very famous bird that actually had its foot shot carrying the message and the bird’s tendon held the message on and delivered it."Alberto showed me around the racing pigeon wing. He was himself introduced to the sport by his father. In pigeon racing, the competing birds are taken to a specific location and released all together. Whichever pigeon arrives home in the quickest time wins. Of course, there’s no finish line per se because each pigeon returns to its own home and calculations are made accordingly. Alberto Gandara and baby pigeon(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)For those involved in high-level competitions and breeding, it can involve huge amounts of money. A few years ago, one very well-bred bird sold for at auction almost $2 million. But most pigeon racing takes place at a local level where the thrill of winning is the biggest prize. Alberto explained to me that in “local pigeon club racing, everyone has their own loft, their own pigeons. You’re breeding your own babies. Then you meet as a club. We ship the birds between 100-600 miles over night. They release them. And by the afternoon they’re back home."Alberto also told me about the training process. “The bird homes naturally. There’s a lot of conditioning. When they’re young, we let them out and they start exercising, memorizing where they live, flying in circles, mapping it out. Then we work up in increments: 2 miles, 10 miles. Once they can manage 100 miles, we start racing them. And they don’t know they’re racing, so they’re the equivalent of speed-walking home to get a drink, see their girlfriend, grab a meal."I said to Alberto that I wanted to know more about pigeons having girlfriends or more generally partnering up.“They have girlfriends and boyfriends and sometimes we use that to motivate them. We may keep the partner away the whole week, and then the day before the race, we let him see his partner but not touch his partner. And then he goes to the race and she’s waiting for him when he gets home."So stirring a pigeon’s desire is one tactic, provoking jealousy is another, according to Alberto. “They have their own little boxes and you can put another male in that male’s box, let him see that male with his mate. And then you send him off to the race and he just comes home a little bit quicker. The hens are easier to motivate with eggs so sometimes we put fake eggs and they’re coming home to get back on their eggs. And there are definitely gay pigeons. Some people only race lesbian pigeons. They claim that they’re unbeatable. And they usually are in long distance hard races. And also, this is kind of a joke, but this thing of pigeons mating for life … I’ve walked into many pigeon scenarios that do not fit the bill." Slappy - a Modina pigeon(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)Alberto took me to the fancy pigeon wing. There are hundreds of fancy pigeon breeds and they do not home in the way that non-fancy homing pigeons do. I was also able to get to encounter some fancy pigeons in real life outside the back of the Museum. I was astonished by how much they differed physically and temperamentally.Slappy, for example, is a Modina pigeon, which is one of the largest breeds. When I tried to touch him, he batted my hand away. “He lets you know that he doesn’t appreciate you,” said Alberto.  A Jacobin Pigeon named Lady Gaga(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)I also met Lady Gaga, a spectacular brown and white Jacobin pigeon. She had an enormous ruff of feathers around her neck and appeared to be dressed up for a very fancy ball. Alberto commented that the Jacobin pigeon “looks like it was designed on a piece of paper by a fashion designer." I could see exactly what he meant.In all, the Museum has twelve fancy pigeons which they often bring out to show visitors if weather permits. Eleven are there on loan, but the twelfth belongs to Gandaras’ five-year-old son, Henry. It’s a splendid dun-colored Fantail whom he named Gerbil. Gerbil made me laugh a lot because his huge chest meant that he walked around with his head pointed towards the sky.  Henry's Fantail pigeon named Gerbil(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)You can find out more about the American Pigeon Museum and Library here.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject that you would like us to focus on in How Curious, please email us at curious@kgou.org.  

Pigeon and Pigeon Eye(Alberto Gandara / Alberto Gandara)I'm Rachel Hopkin, the host and producer of How Curious. This episode is all about The American Pigeon Museum and Library which I visited recently. It's based in Oklahoma City's Adventure District, close to Remington Park. There I met up with its Associate Curator Lauren Gandara. Lauren told me that the Museum was founded in the early 70s and that its purpose is to teach the public about how important pigeons are in history, about the sport of pigeon racing, and about the amazing variety of pigeon breeds. Visitors at the American Pigeon Museum(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)The original board members chose to base the museum in Oklahoma City because of its central location (How Curious regulars may remember that this was also the case for <a href="https://www.kgou.org/show/how-curious/2023-02-07/oklahoma-and-the-morgan-horse" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Morgan Horse Grand National and Championship</a>). In 2014 , the Museum moved to a brand new and specially designed building which has different wings (no pun intended). In line with the Museum's purpose, one wing is dedicated to fancy pigeons – incredible creatures that look nothing like your typical greyish city pigeons; another is devoted to the sport of pigeon racing; and the third is all about pigeon history through the ages. This is where I began my tour. There I learned that earliest records of pigeons date back to around 3000 BC and the ancient Egyptians. Later, the bird became crucial to Julius Caesar’s empire-building ambitions. They were also used in ancient Greece, not least as a means of sending the results of the early Olympics back to the athletes’ home towns.The reason for the bird's place in history is because the homing pigeon has an almost preternatural ability to find its way home, even when released hundreds of miles away from its base. Alberto Gandara has been around pigeons all his life and is a longtime volunteer at the museum (and is also Lauren’s husband). I asked him how the bird is able to do this. He that it's still not fully understood but that it is "a combination of the earth’s magnetic field, the sun’s position, and olfactory senses come into play." Associate Curator Lauren Gandara with Fancy Pigeons(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)During the two World Wars, pigeons were often dropped by parachute over enemy lines so that the soldiers on the ground could use them to send messages back home. According to Alberto, “the enemy knew they were delivering messages and they were shooting at them. And there are famous birds that came home missing legs and eyes and still delivered messages that saved thousands and thousands of lives. Cher Ami was a very famous bird that actually had its foot shot carrying the message and the bird’s tendon held the message on and delivered it."Alberto showed me around the racing pigeon wing. He was himself introduced to the sport by his father. In pigeon racing, the competing birds are taken to a specific location and released all together. Whichever pigeon arrives home in the quickest time wins. Of course, there’s no finish line per se because each pigeon returns to its own home and calculations are made accordingly. Alberto Gandara and baby pigeon(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)For those involved in high-level competitions and breeding, it can involve huge amounts of money. A few years ago, one very well-bred bird sold for at auction almost $2 million. But most pigeon racing takes place at a local level where the thrill of winning is the biggest prize. Alberto explained to me that in “local pigeon club racing, everyone has their own loft, their own pigeons. You’re breeding your own babies. Then you meet as a club. We ship the birds between 100-600 miles over night. They release them. And by the afternoon they’re back home."Alberto also told me about the training process. “The bird homes naturally. There’s a lot of conditioning. When they’re young, we let them out and they start exercising, memorizing where they live, flying in circles, mapping it out. Then we work up in increments: 2 miles, 10 miles. Once they can manage 100 miles, we start racing them. And they don’t know they’re racing, so they’re the equivalent of speed-walking home to get a drink, see their girlfriend, grab a meal."I said to Alberto that I wanted to know more about pigeons having girlfriends or more generally partnering up.“They have girlfriends and boyfriends and sometimes we use that to motivate them. We may keep the partner away the whole week, and then the day before the race, we let him see his partner but not touch his partner. And then he goes to the race and she’s waiting for him when he gets home."So stirring a pigeon’s desire is one tactic, provoking jealousy is another, according to Alberto. “They have their own little boxes and you can put another male in that male’s box, let him see that male with his mate. And then you send him off to the race and he just comes home a little bit quicker. The hens are easier to motivate with eggs so sometimes we put fake eggs and they’re coming home to get back on their eggs. And there are definitely gay pigeons. Some people only race lesbian pigeons. They claim that they’re unbeatable. And they usually are in long distance hard races. And also, this is kind of a joke, but this thing of pigeons mating for life … I’ve walked into many pigeon scenarios that do not fit the bill." Slappy - a Modina pigeon(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)Alberto took me to the fancy pigeon wing. There are hundreds of fancy pigeon breeds and they do not home in the way that non-fancy homing pigeons do. I was also able to get to encounter some fancy pigeons in real life outside the back of the Museum. I was astonished by how much they differed physically and temperamentally.Slappy, for example, is a Modina pigeon, which is one of the largest breeds. When I tried to touch him, he batted my hand away. “He lets you know that he doesn’t appreciate you,” said Alberto. A Jacobin Pigeon named Lady Gaga(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)I also met Lady Gaga, a spectacular brown and white Jacobin pigeon. She had an enormous ruff of feathers around her neck and appeared to be dressed up for a very fancy ball. Alberto commented that the Jacobin pigeon “looks like it was designed on a piece of paper by a fashion designer." I could see exactly what he meant.In all, the Museum has twelve fancy pigeons which they often bring out to show visitors if weather permits. Eleven are there on loan, but the twelfth belongs to Gandaras’ five-year-old son, Henry. It’s a splendid dun-colored Fantail whom he named Gerbil. Gerbil made me laugh a lot because his huge chest meant that he walked around with his head pointed towards the sky. Henry's Fantail pigeon named Gerbil(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)You can find out more about the American Pigeon Museum and Library <a href="https://www.theamericanpigeonmuseum.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">here</a>.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question or subject that you would like us to focus on in How Curious, please email us at <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>.

What fascinating avian museum is based in Oklahoma City?

Frankie's Co-Owners - Tracey (l) and Ann Harris(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )It was KGOU’s own Hannah France – a reporter and producer at the station - who posed the question which led to this episode of How Curious. Here’s what she asked: “My friends and I were wondering about how it is that there is so few remaining lesbian bars in the country but there seems to be an unusually high concentration of them in Oklahoma. There’s three of them, which is more than I certainly would have expected. When one thinks about where there might be a higher concentration of lesbian bars, one thinks of New York, one thinks of Portland, one thinks of San Francisco. Probably not Oklahoma."Three lesbian bars bar in the whole of Oklahoma might not seem like very many but it actually is comparatively. While there used to be several hundred lesbian bars across the country just a few decades back, only 24 remain. So many states have none at all, but the two which tie for top place with three apiece are New York and Oklahoma.“How’d that come to be?” Hannah asked. “I couldn’t think of two places that seem more different than New York and Oklahoma."I decided to look into the matter. Before I looked at Oklahoma specifically, I first wanted to find out more about why the steep reduction in lesbian bars overall. For this I turned to the filmmakers Elina Street and Erica Rose. They are co-founders of The Lesbian Bar Project and creators of its accompanying docu-series which is presented by Lia DeLaria (Orange is the New Black) on the Roku channel. They’ve found that multiple issues have led to the decline, including the way in which the shift to online culture has affected the use of brick and mortar spaces.Sociologist Japonica Brown-Saracino has also researched this topic: “Dyke and lesbian bars have said forever that it’s very hard to sustain the bars economically and they have typically always had short lives. For as long as they’ve existed, they’ve struggled to exist. What’s different in the landscape now is when they close, it’s much more frequent that a city doesn’t have another bar open in its place. That was the pattern that existed for a long time: one would close, another would open, and I think we see that happening less."Frankie’s is one of Oklahoma’s three lesbian bars. It’s located in Oklahoma City’s Venice neighborhood. When I visited there one Thursday evening - that's their regular darts’ night - the place was packed. Fortunately, Frankie’s co-owners Tracey and Ann Harris knew of a quiet spot where we could sit down and chat. Tracey explained that the bar we were in had only existed since May 2022, although they’d started with an earlier iteration of Frankie’s at nearby location. The ease with which Frankie’s has found local acceptance differs from Tracey’s early experience of OKC’s queer venues during the 1980s:“It was still very anxiety-producing to go to any kind of queer space. There was still a lot of hate. We couldn’t park our cars on the street. Every bar had a parking lot behind the building. You never went anywhere alone. We had to sign in at every bar because they were tracking gay people and gay clubs. It was a much scarier but yet thrilling time, because we finally found each other as a crowd. And, of course, at 20 you’re invincible so you worried about those things but that didn’t keep you from going anywhere." At the bar inside Frankie's(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)I asked them to describe Frankie’s for somebody who’d never been there. Ann responded: “I always say that Frankie’s is a place to feel safe, to be who you are. We’re not solely a lesbian bar. Everyone’s welcome here." Tracey added, “During the week, we’re basically your neighborhood bar where people can come for happy hour and play darts and hang out. And then it transforms on the weekends to more of a show bar. And our slogan is that ‘Everybody has a home at Frankie’s.' That’s actually the entire vision we had to start with."Frankie’s Facebook page offers video clips many of the shows they’ve hosted. A lot of them have doubled as fund-raising events for local charities or for members of Frankie’s clientele who are in need. One customer told me that in just the few years that Frankie’s has been open, they’ve raised hundreds of thousands of dollars. Their entertainment line-up includes music gigs, drag queens or drag kings singing and/or dancing, along with some rather risqué comedy skits.Monica and Abby met at Frankie’s. I asked how they’d describe the vibe of the bar. Monica said: “Family. Absolutely one hundred per cent family. I know that if I had any kind of issues with anything or if I just needed somebody to pick me up off the floor, I could call anybody in that bar." Abby added, “It’s like the Cheers of the lesbian community. You walk in and everybody knows who you are. And even though it’s a mainly lesbian bar, we have straight people coming in, we have gay men coming in, so it’s a mix of everybody."Garrett and his husband sometimes perform as drag queens at Frankie’s. Garrett, who is from Oklahoma, came out in his early 20s and was taken to see his first drag show by some friends. “It was definitely a culture shock – I grew up very religious – but pretty soon after that, I had my chosen family. That’s why gay bars are so important. Because this is where we find our chosen family."Scott is another member of the Frankie’s family. “I’m just a straight guy. I’m just a customer here. Love the community. Love the people. Love supporting them." In fact, he said, he actually preferred hanging out in lesbian bars: “I know where I stand. There’s no confusion whatsoever. Yes, I’m friends with a lot of the girls here. Some of them do this thing we me that I like to call 'they play straight.' They flirt with me, hug on me, and joke around. But at the end of the night, I know that they are 100% not interested in me. There’s none of that tension there. It’s actually kind of nice." At Frankie's, Thursday night is Darts Night(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )Coming back to Hannah’s question of why New York and Oklahoma are in a tie for being the states with the most lesbian bars. This is something that the Lesbian Bar Project’s Erica Rose and Elina Street both have ideas about. Elina pointed out that, “Assimilation in New York is definitely more present and we’re very lucky and we do have more of an abundance now of queer parties. So I think there’s just more freedom and acceptance." Since Elina had not visited Oklahoma, she deferred to Erica when talking of it. Before sharing her thoughts, Erica wanted to clarify that she did not have “a strong institutional knowledge of Oklahoma. I’ve been there once and I actually have a couple of friends and my ex is from Oklahoma. But from my experience of talking to people there, it actually really makes sense. When we talk about our bars and this project, we always frame them within their geographic location. So in a place like Oklahoma, what I was struck by is that I would drive down a street and I would see an LBGTQ-affirming church with a big rainbow flag, and then right next to it - the family I was working with, they would say ‘Okay. Well, conversion therapy happens right across the street.' When you’re dealing with an environment that isn’t solely antagonistic but isn’t necessarily that accepting, the stakes are so much higher."Japonica Brown-Saracino has also reflected on this matter: “There are different reasons why places might have a lot or not a lot of bars. New York is a giant place with a really vibrant tourist industry, and that probably allows New York to still have three bars. But Oklahoma might have bars for a different reason. What I found in my research was that it was the places where people felt less secure and accepted, that they sought out those kinds of institutions. I actually remember an informant in San Luis Obispo saying that she was incredibly disappointed by the absence of lesbian bars in San Luis Obispo. She’d lived in Oklahoma for a long time and Oklahoma had spoiled her because now she expected everywhere to have this vibrant lesbian bar scene."Frankie’s regulars also have opinions regarding this issue, including Garrett: “I think it is hilarious that one of the reddest states in the country has three lesbian-owned bars here. I think it also is a true testament to the community that we have here and how strong we are. And how we will persevere no matter what is thrown at us."Monica and Abby pointed out that Oklahoma is in the Bible Belt. Monica: “Even though we have one of the closest, the tightest core group of gay people that you could find in America, we’re surrounded by people who don’t believe that being gay or being queer is a thing."Frankie’s co-owner Ann Harris agreed: “I think the reason is a need. The reason there are the number of gay bars as a whole, not just lesbian bars, in Oklahoma and Oklahoma City is because we are a red state. And although we, as a gay couple, can go out to dinner somewhere and be accepted by the workers that work there or the owners that own the establishment, there may be other people that are dining there who don’t necessarily accept us in the same way."As for the vision for Frankie’s going forward, here’s what Tracey Harris had to say: “We’re going to stay the course. We’re going to continue to welcome all kinds of people – as along as they’re nice – and we’re going to continue to get that word out."How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. Please don’t forget, if you have an Oklahoma-related question, do email me at curious@kgou.org.  

Frankie's Co-Owners - Tracey (l) and Ann Harris(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )It was KGOU’s own Hannah France – a reporter and producer at the station - who posed the question which led to this episode of How Curious. Here’s what she asked: “My friends and I were wondering about how it is that there is so few remaining lesbian bars in the country but there seems to be an unusually high concentration of them in Oklahoma. There’s three of them, which is more than I certainly would have expected. When one thinks about where there might be a higher concentration of lesbian bars, one thinks of New York, one thinks of Portland, one thinks of San Francisco. Probably not Oklahoma."Three lesbian bars bar in the whole of Oklahoma might not seem like very many but it actually is comparatively. While there used to be several hundred lesbian bars across the country just a few decades back, only 24 remain. So many states have none at all, but the two which tie for top place with three apiece are New York and Oklahoma.“How’d that come to be?” Hannah asked. “I couldn’t think of two places that seem more different than New York and Oklahoma."I decided to look into the matter. Before I looked at Oklahoma specifically, I first wanted to find out more about why the steep reduction in lesbian bars overall. For this I turned to the filmmakers Elina Street and Erica Rose. They are co-founders of The Lesbian Bar Project and creators of its accompanying docu-series which is presented by Lia DeLaria (Orange is the New Black) on the Roku channel. They’ve found that multiple issues have led to the decline, including the way in which the shift to online culture has affected the use of brick and mortar spaces.Sociologist Japonica Brown-Saracino has also researched this topic: “Dyke and lesbian bars have said forever that it’s very hard to sustain the bars economically and they have typically always had short lives. For as long as they’ve existed, they’ve struggled to exist. What’s different in the landscape now is when they close, it’s much more frequent that a city doesn’t have another bar open in its place. That was the pattern that existed for a long time: one would close, another would open, and I think we see that happening less."<a href="https://www.restaurantji.com/ok/oklahoma-city/frankies-okc-/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Frankie’s</a> is one of Oklahoma’s three lesbian bars. It’s located in Oklahoma City’s Venice neighborhood. When I visited there one Thursday evening - that's their regular darts’ night - the place was packed. Fortunately, Frankie’s co-owners Tracey and Ann Harris knew of a quiet spot where we could sit down and chat. Tracey explained that the bar we were in had only existed since May 2022, although they’d started with an earlier iteration of Frankie’s at nearby location. The ease with which Frankie’s has found local acceptance differs from Tracey’s early experience of OKC’s queer venues during the 1980s:“It was still very anxiety-producing to go to any kind of queer space. There was still a lot of hate. We couldn’t park our cars on the street. Every bar had a parking lot behind the building. You never went anywhere alone. We had to sign in at every bar because they were tracking gay people and gay clubs. It was a much scarier but yet thrilling time, because we finally found each other as a crowd. And, of course, at 20 you’re invincible so you worried about those things but that didn’t keep you from going anywhere." At the bar inside Frankie's(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)I asked them to describe Frankie’s for somebody who’d never been there. Ann responded: “I always say that Frankie’s is a place to feel safe, to be who you are. We’re not solely a lesbian bar. Everyone’s welcome here." Tracey added, “During the week, we’re basically your neighborhood bar where people can come for happy hour and play darts and hang out. And then it transforms on the weekends to more of a show bar. And our slogan is that ‘Everybody has a home at Frankie’s.' That’s actually the entire vision we had to start with."Frankie’s Facebook page offers video clips many of the shows they’ve hosted. A lot of them have doubled as fund-raising events for local charities or for members of Frankie’s clientele who are in need. One customer told me that in just the few years that Frankie’s has been open, they’ve raised hundreds of thousands of dollars. Their entertainment line-up includes music gigs, drag queens or drag kings singing and/or dancing, along with some rather risqué comedy skits.Monica and Abby met at Frankie’s. I asked how they’d describe the vibe of the bar. Monica said: “Family. Absolutely one hundred per cent family. I know that if I had any kind of issues with anything or if I just needed somebody to pick me up off the floor, I could call anybody in that bar." Abby added, “It’s like the Cheers of the lesbian community. You walk in and everybody knows who you are. And even though it’s a mainly lesbian bar, we have straight people coming in, we have gay men coming in, so it’s a mix of everybody."Garrett and his husband sometimes perform as drag queens at Frankie’s. Garrett, who is from Oklahoma, came out in his early 20s and was taken to see his first drag show by some friends. “It was definitely a culture shock – I grew up very religious – but pretty soon after that, I had my chosen family. That’s why gay bars are so important. Because this is where we find our chosen family."Scott is another member of the Frankie’s family. “I’m just a straight guy. I’m just a customer here. Love the community. Love the people. Love supporting them." In fact, he said, he actually preferred hanging out in lesbian bars: “I know where I stand. There’s no confusion whatsoever. Yes, I’m friends with a lot of the girls here. Some of them do this thing we me that I like to call 'they play straight.' They flirt with me, hug on me, and joke around. But at the end of the night, I know that they are 100% not interested in me. There’s none of that tension there. It’s actually kind of nice." At Frankie's, Thursday night is Darts Night(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )Coming back to Hannah’s question of why New York and Oklahoma are in a tie for being the states with the most lesbian bars. This is something that the Lesbian Bar Project’s Erica Rose and Elina Street both have ideas about. Elina pointed out that, “Assimilation in New York is definitely more present and we’re very lucky and we do have more of an abundance now of queer parties. So I think there’s just more freedom and acceptance." Since Elina had not visited Oklahoma, she deferred to Erica when talking of it. Before sharing her thoughts, Erica wanted to clarify that she did not have “a strong institutional knowledge of Oklahoma. I’ve been there once and I actually have a couple of friends and my ex is from Oklahoma. But from my experience of talking to people there, it actually really makes sense. When we talk about our bars and this project, we always frame them within their geographic location. So in a place like Oklahoma, what I was struck by is that I would drive down a street and I would see an LBGTQ-affirming church with a big rainbow flag, and then right next to it - the family I was working with, they would say ‘Okay. Well, conversion therapy happens right across the street.' When you’re dealing with an environment that isn’t solely antagonistic but isn’t necessarily that accepting, the stakes are so much higher."Japonica Brown-Saracino has also reflected on this matter: “There are different reasons why places might have a lot or not a lot of bars. New York is a giant place with a really vibrant tourist industry, and that probably allows New York to still have three bars. But Oklahoma might have bars for a different reason. What I found in my research was that it was the places where people felt less secure and accepted, that they sought out those kinds of institutions. I actually remember an informant in San Luis Obispo saying that she was incredibly disappointed by the absence of lesbian bars in San Luis Obispo. She’d lived in Oklahoma for a long time and Oklahoma had spoiled her because now she expected everywhere to have this vibrant lesbian bar scene."Frankie’s regulars also have opinions regarding this issue, including Garrett: “I think it is hilarious that one of the reddest states in the country has three lesbian-owned bars here. I think it also is a true testament to the community that we have here and how strong we are. And how we will persevere no matter what is thrown at us."Monica and Abby pointed out that Oklahoma is in the Bible Belt. Monica: “Even though we have one of the closest, the tightest core group of gay people that you could find in America, we’re surrounded by people who don’t believe that being gay or being queer is a thing."Frankie’s co-owner Ann Harris agreed: “I think the reason is a need. The reason there are the number of gay bars as a whole, not just lesbian bars, in Oklahoma and Oklahoma City is because we are a red state. And although we, as a gay couple, can go out to dinner somewhere and be accepted by the workers that work there or the owners that own the establishment, there may be other people that are dining there who don’t necessarily accept us in the same way."As for the vision for Frankie’s going forward, here’s what Tracey Harris had to say: “We’re going to stay the course. We’re going to continue to welcome all kinds of people – as along as they’re nice – and we’re going to continue to get that word out."How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. Please don’t forget, if you have an Oklahoma-related question, do email me at <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>.

How come Oklahoma has so many lesbian bars?

A young Albert E. Brumley(Betsy Brumley )Like many people, I’ve been aware of the song I’ll Fly Away for years, but it wasn’t until I moved to Oklahoma in 2022 that I learned that it came from this state. It was composed in the late 1920s by a young man called Albert E. Brumley on the threshold of his musical career. It has since become one of the most recorded gospel songs of all time and has been covered by thousands of artists in multiple styles all over the world.Brumley was born in 1905 in Indian Territory, two years before Oklahoma achieved statehood. His parents were share-croppers who lived close to Spiro on Choctaw Nation land. Gospel singing was very important to many people living in this area at that time. At a recent Bryan County Singing Convention in Durant, over a hundred people - many of them Choctaw - had traveled to enjoy gospel songs and worship together. Such conventions are relatively rare today, but when Brumley was growing up, they were everywhere. By the turn of the last century, this part of Oklahoma was already home to diverse peoples, and gospel songs were sung frequently, regardless of whether the singers were white, Black, Native American, or something else. And many of them were musically literate – meaning they were able to sight read the music in the hymnals. This was thanks to their having been trained in the shape note system – a pedagogical method to aid musical learning. In it, each note of the scale – do, re, mi, fa, so, la – is given a different shape. Roger Scott, a Choctaw pastor, is from this area and told me about his experience: “When I was a child growing up, I remember going to singings like this. A lot of our things were taken away when we were moved from Mississippi to Oklahoma and a lot of traditions were not picked back up. Also some of them were outlawed. Since they did not have those, they picked up on gospel music, and began to use that as part of their culture. Since the time I was growing up, it was all shape note singing." A Recent Bryan County Singing Convention, Durant, Oklahoma(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )By the time Roger was gaining his musical education in the 1960s, he was mostly learning at home. However, earlier in the century, the cultural importance of gospel singing was such that whole communities would come together to seek musical training. Larry O’Dell from the Oklahoma Historical Society explains, “In Oklahoma and in other frontiers, in order for groups and congregations to learn music, they would attend these schools to learn shape note singing, and these schools would last three to four weeks and usually three hours each night. And these teachers would move from town to town and do this and once it was over, the congregation could sight read."This is how the young Albert Brumley himself learned and as Larry pointed out , he must have been very interested in it because he went to school to study it. Brumley’s ambitions in this direction had been boosted by a meeting with E. M. Bartlett. Bartlett ran the Hartford Music Institute in Arkansas where students learned to teach and compose shape note music. Betsy Brumley is the granddaughter of Albert Brumley and told me what she’d heard about this part of his life: “Grandpa decided to go and hitch-hiked from Spiro to Hartford, and he didn’t have money for tuition, he didn’t have money for anything, he just knocked on E. M. Bartlett’s door and said ‘I met you and I really want to learn how to write music.' And E. M. Bartlett saw some moxie in him or something and said ‘you’d better sleep on my couch and I’ll make you a deal – I’ll teach you this but you’re going to have to write for me until you pay back your tuition.'"Besides being a music educator, Bartlett was also the founder of Hartford Music Company which published hymnals. For Brumley, he became a vital mentor in both the art and the business of music-making. Albert joined the Institute in 1926. In 1929, he had to return to Oklahoma to help out on the family farm and it was during that time, that the song I’ll Fly Away began to take shape in his mind. Betsy has heard stories of how this came about many times: “He was out picking cotton and if you’ve ever picked cotton, you know that it’s very painful on your fingers and he was picking by hand. And  he knew he did not want to have a life of that. And he remembered the old prison hymn – ‘If I had the wings of an angel, I would fly away.' And then he took that thought and turned it into the song of I’ll Fly Away as we know it today."Brumley was a prolific composer, writing over 600 songs, but each song typically took him several years to complete. I’ll Fly Away was no exception. He didn’t finish it until 1932. By then, he had married, moved to Missouri, and was continuing to write for the Bartlett Music Company, for whom he was contracted to deliver one song a month. Initially, it didn’t occur to him to submit I’ll Fly Away but his wife persuaded him, as Betsy told me: “If Grandma Brumley had not been in the picture, I’ll Fly Away would not have been published. He always called it ‘a little ditty.' He was looking for a song in for the September month. And grandma just said ‘well, why don’t you send I’ll Fly Away in?' and he was, like, ‘OK.' He didn’t believe in it enough, but she did. She saw his genius." Betsy Brumley( Betsy Brumley)I’ll Fly Away made its debut public appearance in a hymnal titled Wonderful Message. From there, it began to make its way into the world. Jeff Moore, who is the Executive Director of OKPOP , was struck by how quickly it seemed to have an impact: “Sometimes songs take a while to catch on. It seems to me that I’ll Fly Away, as soon as it was written, it spread really, really quickly. It’s on recordings by other artists within less that ten years of when he wrote it. That’s really phenomenal given the time period. It was very much word of mouth."The first recording of the song was made in 1940 by Reverend J. M. Gates and singers in Atlanta, Georgia. Then, as more and more artists took it up, it gained steam, so much so that when The Chuck Wagon Gang (a group with a large radio following in Texas) recorded it at the end of the 1940s, their version sold over a million copies. However, according to Betsy Brumley, it  wasn’t until several decades later, around the time of her grandpa’s death in 1977, that it began to evolve into the musical phenomenon that it is today: “We had 726 recordings of it in 1976, and now we have over 12,000."In that time, I’ll Fly Away has become part of popular culture, featured in everything from The Waltons to the hit movie O Brother, Where Art Thou?  In the process, it has gained meaning for people from all walks of life, regardless of their backgrounds or religious beliefs. I asked Betsy, if Brumley had ever resented this song’s unique success, given that he had written so many others. She replied: “You have to remember, grandpa was an artist, but he was also a business man and a publisher. In publishing terms, when you have a song as successful as I’ll Fly Away, you do not resent every time you get that paycheck. The music business is a business thing. People think of it as art, and it is an art, but making money with your art is a very important part of the art."Like E. M. Bartlett before him, Brumley understood this and again, like his mentor, he also became a music publisher as Betsy mentioned – not only of his own songs and but those of other composers, too. In 1944, he founded the Albert E. Brumley &amp; Sons Music Company. Today, over 40 years on from Brumley’s death, the Brumley Music Company (as it is now called) continues to thrive in the hands of Betsy and her siblings. And I’ll Fly Away remains under copyright. This means that every time it airs in a commercial context - be it on a CD, on Spotify, or in a TV show or or a film - rights to use the song must be cleared and royalties paid. I was curious as to whether there had ever been incidences when the song had been performed without being copyright cleared. Betsy's response was emphatic: “Yes. That would be my life of sitting in a courtroom. Happens all the time, because people assume they’re public domain and they’re not. So instead of doing their due diligence, we send them a letter saying ‘you need to pay royalties on this’ and if they don’t do it, you end up in court. We have sued everybody and their dog - we’ve sued Puff Daddy, we’ve sued the Dixie Chicks – and we’ve won because it's the music business, and we do the business side very well."I then became intrigued as to whether there would be times when they denied requests to use the song. Betsy confirmed this to be the case: “We’ve denied lots of people use just because of context, mostly in sync licensing, which is what you do for TV and film. If the context is witchcraft, if it’s evil … I mean we have turned down hundreds of thousands of dollars, because you have to think about the integrity of the song. If you’ve got a song that is beloved, and all of a sudden it’s used with evil content or with sexual content, it changes the integrity of the song. It actually makes it less valuable." Portrait of Albert E. Brumley( Betsy Brumley)I asked Betsy to give me an example. She recalled an occasion where the company was contacted by the producers of the TV show Fargo:  “They wanted to use I’ll Fly Away with a hooker singing the song as she was doing a sexual act to a man. We said 'no' of course. And it was a high five-figure amount of money. So it was a very significant amount of money that we turned down."The Bryan County Singing Convention taking place at the Choctaw Community Center in Durant, Oklahoma, is a context that is much closer to that which the young Albert Brumley would have had in mind when he wrote I’ll Fly Away. But even here, not too far from where Brumley grew up, the song continues to accrue new meaning and significance. Towards the end of the event, a group of young people from the New Beginnings Church assembled to sing some songs. They started with a version of I’ll Fly Away sung in the Choctaw language. The New Beginnings pastor, Roger Scott, explained why he felt this to be important: “They’re saying that we’re one generation away from losing our language. It is our responsibility to keep the language going and one way we can do that is teach them those songs." I asked if it felt very different singing the song in Choctaw as opposed to English. Roger replied: “I believe the Choctaw language, it kind of gets hold of the spirit of it for me. And when I look at these kids. I saw them when they were little ones. And now here they are, 16 or 17 years old. And they’re about to go out into the world. But they can take that song with them wherever they go. It just makes me so proud that they can sing their own language. And that gives me a warm feeling right here."Special thanks to Zane Harding, Tobin Bawinkel, and Katelyn Howard. How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.This episode includes performances of I’ll Fly Away by the following artists:Reba McEntireGeorga (version titled Jag Flyger Hem)Flatfoot 56Robson Pires, XMAILIN, Kevin Kruise, Alex Perez, Nicholas Delgado, and Maíra De FrançaAll AngelsSweet Jazz PopeyeReverend J. M. Gates and singersThe Original Chuck Wagon GangO Brother, Where Art Thou? (soundtrack)

A young Albert E. Brumley(Betsy Brumley )Like many people, I’ve been aware of the song I’ll Fly Away for years, but it wasn’t until I moved to Oklahoma in 2022 that I learned that it came from this state. It was composed in the late 1920s by a young man called Albert E. Brumley on the threshold of his musical career. It has since become one of the most recorded gospel songs of all time and has been covered by thousands of artists in multiple styles all over the world.Brumley was born in 1905 in Indian Territory, two years before Oklahoma achieved statehood. His parents were share-croppers who lived close to Spiro on Choctaw Nation land. Gospel singing was very important to many people living in this area at that time. At a recent Bryan County Singing Convention in Durant, over a hundred people - many of them Choctaw - had traveled to enjoy gospel songs and worship together. Such conventions are relatively rare today, but when Brumley was growing up, they were everywhere. By the turn of the last century, this part of Oklahoma was already home to diverse peoples, and gospel songs were sung frequently, regardless of whether the singers were white, Black, Native American, or something else. And many of them were musically literate – meaning they were able to sight read the music in the hymnals. This was thanks to their having been trained in the shape note system – a pedagogical method to aid musical learning. In it, each note of the scale – do, re, mi, fa, so, la – is given a different shape. Roger Scott, a Choctaw pastor, is from this area and told me about his experience: “When I was a child growing up, I remember going to singings like this. A lot of our things were taken away when we were moved from Mississippi to Oklahoma and a lot of traditions were not picked back up. Also some of them were outlawed. Since they did not have those, they picked up on gospel music, and began to use that as part of their culture. Since the time I was growing up, it was all shape note singing." A Recent Bryan County Singing Convention, Durant, Oklahoma(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )By the time Roger was gaining his musical education in the 1960s, he was mostly learning at home. However, earlier in the century, the cultural importance of gospel singing was such that whole communities would come together to seek musical training. Larry O’Dell from the Oklahoma Historical Society explains, “In Oklahoma and in other frontiers, in order for groups and congregations to learn music, they would attend these schools to learn shape note singing, and these schools would last three to four weeks and usually three hours each night. And these teachers would move from town to town and do this and once it was over, the congregation could sight read."This is how the young Albert Brumley himself learned and as Larry pointed out , he must have been very interested in it because he went to school to study it. Brumley’s ambitions in this direction had been boosted by a meeting with E. M. Bartlett. Bartlett ran the Hartford Music Institute in Arkansas where students learned to teach and compose shape note music. Betsy Brumley is the granddaughter of Albert Brumley and told me what she’d heard about this part of his life: “Grandpa decided to go and hitch-hiked from Spiro to Hartford, and he didn’t have money for tuition, he didn’t have money for anything, he just knocked on E. M. Bartlett’s door and said ‘I met you and I really want to learn how to write music.' And E. M. Bartlett saw some moxie in him or something and said ‘you’d better sleep on my couch and I’ll make you a deal – I’ll teach you this but you’re going to have to write for me until you pay back your tuition.'"Besides being a music educator, Bartlett was also the founder of Hartford Music Company which published hymnals. For Brumley, he became a vital mentor in both the art and the business of music-making. Albert joined the Institute in 1926. In 1929, he had to return to Oklahoma to help out on the family farm and it was during that time, that the song I’ll Fly Away began to take shape in his mind. Betsy has heard stories of how this came about many times: “He was out picking cotton and if you’ve ever picked cotton, you know that it’s very painful on your fingers and he was picking by hand. And he knew he did not want to have a life of that. And he remembered the old prison hymn – ‘If I had the wings of an angel, I would fly away.' And then he took that thought and turned it into the song of I’ll Fly Away as we know it today."Brumley was a prolific composer, writing over 600 songs, but each song typically took him several years to complete. I’ll Fly Away was no exception. He didn’t finish it until 1932. By then, he had married, moved to Missouri, and was continuing to write for the Bartlett Music Company, for whom he was contracted to deliver one song a month. Initially, it didn’t occur to him to submit I’ll Fly Away but his wife persuaded him, as Betsy told me: “If Grandma Brumley had not been in the picture, I’ll Fly Away would not have been published. He always called it ‘a little ditty.' He was looking for a song in for the September month. And grandma just said ‘well, why don’t you send I’ll Fly Away in?' and he was, like, ‘OK.' He didn’t believe in it enough, but she did. She saw his genius." Betsy Brumley( Betsy Brumley)I’ll Fly Away made its debut public appearance in a hymnal titled Wonderful Message. From there, it began to make its way into the world. Jeff Moore, who is the Executive Director of OKPOP , was struck by how quickly it seemed to have an impact: “Sometimes songs take a while to catch on. It seems to me that I’ll Fly Away, as soon as it was written, it spread really, really quickly. It’s on recordings by other artists within less that ten years of when he wrote it. That’s really phenomenal given the time period. It was very much word of mouth."The first recording of the song was made in 1940 by Reverend J. M. Gates and singers in Atlanta, Georgia. Then, as more and more artists took it up, it gained steam, so much so that when The Chuck Wagon Gang (a group with a large radio following in Texas) recorded it at the end of the 1940s, their version sold over a million copies. However, according to Betsy Brumley, it wasn’t until several decades later, around the time of her grandpa’s death in 1977, that it began to evolve into the musical phenomenon that it is today: “We had 726 recordings of it in 1976, and now we have over 12,000."In that time, I’ll Fly Away has become part of popular culture, featured in everything from The Waltons to the hit movie O Brother, Where Art Thou? In the process, it has gained meaning for people from all walks of life, regardless of their backgrounds or religious beliefs. I asked Betsy, if Brumley had ever resented this song’s unique success, given that he had written so many others. She replied: “You have to remember, grandpa was an artist, but he was also a business man and a publisher. In publishing terms, when you have a song as successful as I’ll Fly Away, you do not resent every time you get that paycheck. The music business is a business thing. People think of it as art, and it is an art, but making money with your art is a very important part of the art."Like E. M. Bartlett before him, Brumley understood this and again, like his mentor, he also became a music publisher as Betsy mentioned – not only of his own songs and but those of other composers, too. In 1944, he founded the Albert E. Brumley &amp; Sons Music Company. Today, over 40 years on from Brumley’s death, the Brumley Music Company (as it is now called) continues to thrive in the hands of Betsy and her siblings. And I’ll Fly Away remains under copyright. This means that every time it airs in a commercial context - be it on a CD, on Spotify, or in a TV show or or a film - rights to use the song must be cleared and royalties paid. I was curious as to whether there had ever been incidences when the song had been performed without being copyright cleared. Betsy's response was emphatic: “Yes. That would be my life of sitting in a courtroom. Happens all the time, because people assume they’re public domain and they’re not. So instead of doing their due diligence, we send them a letter saying ‘you need to pay royalties on this’ and if they don’t do it, you end up in court. We have sued everybody and their dog - we’ve sued Puff Daddy, we’ve sued the Dixie Chicks – and we’ve won because it's the music business, and we do the business side very well."I then became intrigued as to whether there would be times when they denied requests to use the song. Betsy confirmed this to be the case: “We’ve denied lots of people use just because of context, mostly in sync licensing, which is what you do for TV and film. If the context is witchcraft, if it’s evil … I mean we have turned down hundreds of thousands of dollars, because you have to think about the integrity of the song. If you’ve got a song that is beloved, and all of a sudden it’s used with evil content or with sexual content, it changes the integrity of the song. It actually makes it less valuable." Portrait of Albert E. Brumley( Betsy Brumley)I asked Betsy to give me an example. She recalled an occasion where the company was contacted by the producers of the TV show Fargo: “They wanted to use I’ll Fly Away with a hooker singing the song as she was doing a sexual act to a man. We said 'no' of course. And it was a high five-figure amount of money. So it was a very significant amount of money that we turned down."The Bryan County Singing Convention taking place at the Choctaw Community Center in Durant, Oklahoma, is a context that is much closer to that which the young Albert Brumley would have had in mind when he wrote I’ll Fly Away. But even here, not too far from where Brumley grew up, the song continues to accrue new meaning and significance. Towards the end of the event, a group of young people from the New Beginnings Church assembled to sing some songs. They started with a version of I’ll Fly Away sung in the Choctaw language. The New Beginnings pastor, Roger Scott, explained why he felt this to be important: “They’re saying that we’re one generation away from losing our language. It is our responsibility to keep the language going and one way we can do that is teach them those songs." I asked if it felt very different singing the song in Choctaw as opposed to English. Roger replied: “I believe the Choctaw language, it kind of gets hold of the spirit of it for me. And when I look at these kids. I saw them when they were little ones. And now here they are, 16 or 17 years old. And they’re about to go out into the world. But they can take that song with them wherever they go. It just makes me so proud that they can sing their own language. And that gives me a warm feeling right here."Special thanks to Zane Harding, Tobin Bawinkel, and Katelyn Howard. How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.This episode includes performances of I’ll Fly Away by the following artists:Reba McEntire Georga (version titled Jag Flyger Hem) Flatfoot 56 Robson Pires, XMAILIN, Kevin Kruise, Alex Perez, Nicholas Delgado, and Maíra De França All Angels Sweet Jazz Popeye Reverend J. M. Gates and singers The Original Chuck Wagon Gang O Brother, Where Art Thou? (soundtrack)

How did an Oklahoma gospel song become an international musical phenomenon?

A roadside view of the Shattuck Windmill Museum(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )A short while back, a lady named Shirley Lorenz phoned up KGOU. She was calling from the Shattuck Windmill Museum and wanted to add an event to the station’s community calendar. Jim Johnson – KGOU’s Program Director – took the call. He’s lived in Oklahoma practically his whole life, and he’d never heard of this place, he said. Did I know of it? I did not, I said, but it definitely sounded like my cup of tea. So I decided to give Shirley a ring myself. And in no time at all, we’d arranged for me to go visit the place.After about driving for three hours from Norman to Shattuck, I arrived at the Windmill Museum. Everyone who who works at the museum is a volunteer and several of them were there to greet me, including Doug Schoenhals. He’s a lifelong Shattuck resident and has been involved with the museum since its inception in 1994. Its founder was a local lady named Phillis Ballew. Doug told me: “Phillis Ballew came back to retire in this community and in her wanting to put up a windmill like her grandad had, she found someone to restore a windmill and he stated he wanted to start a windmill museum, and Phillis thought that would be a good idea."The restorer’s name was Marvin Stinson and he went on to loan Phillis four of his own windmills to get the place started. She then put an ad in the paper asking for volunteers to come and help. Doug was one of those who responded: “At our first official meeting we had nine people there. The next one, we had twenty-some people. We formed a board and decided to go ahead with the process.” Doug Schoenhals standing inside one of the Museum's storage/workshop buildings(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )Shirley Lorenz has also involved since the museum’s early days: “I knew Phillis as a child, we were childhood friends. When she came back here and started working on the park, we had a lot more contact and I said: “You know, you have to do it. It’s the history of this area.” I told her then that I would do whatever I could for the windmill park as long as I could. She has subsequently died and so we are keeping it going."Doug took me to see Phillis’s windmill – the one that got this whole place going. It’s kept inside to protect it. It’s called an Eclipse and is a large and rather magnificent object painted in a gleaming red and tan. Stinson evidently did an excellent job restoring it.When Doug stepped down as the Museum’s president in 2022, Van Hurst took over. He’s a comparatively recent addition to the volunteer ranks. He told me how he became involved: “A number of years ago, I was purchasing the land out west of Shattuck of Mrs Ballew. On that land there was this old windmill, and we didn’t fully realize that it had been donated to the Museum until after the fact.”"Wait a minute," I responded. “Does that you bought this land thinking came with a windmill and it didn’t?"Van laughed and continued: “It was not clarified in our minds that it was already given to the windmill museum until someone approached us, and we said ‘What? Well good. They can have it.' A wooden windmill without maintenance in this part of the country will finally fall to pieces, so I was delighted that Mrs Ballew had made arrangements."Even though Van is a relative newbie at the Museum, he came with a great deal of windmill experience: “I grew up with windmills as a source of water for our farm, north of Shattuck here, about 15 miles. And they have to be serviced regularly. Someone needs to climb up to the top, take the top off of the windmill, change the oil or be sure that it has oil in it. Well, you’ve got to realize that that’s quite a way up and when it’s turning, we need to be sure that it stops or it could knock you off. We’re supposed to put the brakes on and stop it. However, the brakes often malfunction, so I find that adventuresome. And we always appreciated having water."All of the windmills in the museum are designed to be set over a well and pump water to the surface because those were the kinds of windmills used in this area. As Doug explained: “When the Cherokee outlet run opened in 1893, the land that was claimed was by creeks, rivers, and so on. The rest of it, they called it uninhabitable. Shortly thereafter, a lot of people started importing windmills and so the land became habitable.” Volunteers at work at the Shattuck Windmill Museum(Shirley Lorenz /  Shattuck Windmill Museum)When the Museum started, its windmills were all from places close by, many of them produced by the same manufacturers, so initially its collection lacked variety. That changed after Mrs Ballew joined a windmill association she had learned about from Marvin Stinson. There she found all kinds of windmills and so the Museum began acquiring them from further afield. I was curious about what it takes to transport a windmill, and imagined one strapped to the back of a huge truck. However, Doug told me they are taken apart first and then arrive in the form of “little piles of junk” which then have to been painstakingly reassembled.Most of the Museum’s windmills are kept outside. One of the most eye-catching – due to its size and location – is Railroad Eclipse which stands right next to the road. Doug explained that “The Santa Fe needed a lot of water whenever they expanded their route to the west. So they tried to put a windmill every seven miles. That way they had water to generate the steam.”As we heard, the museum started out with four windmills. It now has 64 altogether. In the process, the Museum has garnered quite the reputation amongst people interested in windmills, many of whom attend the annual windmill trade fair. Shirley said: “Every year, wind millers from around the world get together to buy, sell, and trade, chat and chew, and gossip, and whatever it is they do. And we one last year. It’s the third one we’ve had in Shattuck and they ask to come back to Shattuck.” Early American Settlers in front of Windmill(T. Lindsay Baker/American Windmills /  T. Lindsay Baker/American Windmills)Shattuck is also very well-known locally, not least thanks to the columns that Shirley writes regularly for a couple of the area’s newspapers and which have given her the chance to learn a great deal about windmills and the role they played in this region: "We always think of windmills as the life-force because they brought water to the surface. But as I was doing research, I found out that windmills served another psychological and emotional purpose. When the pioneers came here, this was extremely flat land. There was no vertical relief. The windmill provided that. When you travel, you go to have your pictures made and you look for a structure that goes up. I don’t care if it’s the Eiffel Tower, the Washington Tower, Mount Rushmore. It can be anything. When you look at pictures of the pioneers, so often they are gathered around the windmill. And when you were in the country driving along, sometimes you would see a windmill that was off the road. You could not see the farmhouse but you knew someone lived there because there was a windmill."Before I left, Shirley commented on the age of the Museum’s personnel: “Our volunteer group, almost all are in their 70s and 80s. The reality is that a lot of the young people today do not have the connection to the windmills that the older ones do, and I want to make certain that the young people here today have some understanding of and appreciation for what the ancestors did and what it meant to the people here.”I certainly felt grateful for all I had learned about windmills and the vital role they played in this area. And I’d like to say special thanks to E A Reeh and Sharon Schultz Bradshaw, both whom I also met during my visit to Shattuck.(E. A. Reeh /  E. A. Reeh)How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. And please remember, if you have an Oklahoma-related question you’d like us to investigate, please email us a curious@kgou.org.  

A roadside view of the Shattuck Windmill Museum(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )A short while back, a lady named Shirley Lorenz phoned up KGOU. She was calling from the Shattuck Windmill Museum and wanted to add an event to the station’s community calendar. Jim Johnson – KGOU’s Program Director – took the call. He’s lived in Oklahoma practically his whole life, and he’d never heard of this place, he said. Did I know of it? I did not, I said, but it definitely sounded like my cup of tea. So I decided to give Shirley a ring myself. And in no time at all, we’d arranged for me to go visit the place.After about driving for three hours from Norman to Shattuck, I arrived at the Windmill Museum. Everyone who who works at the museum is a volunteer and several of them were there to greet me, including Doug Schoenhals. He’s a lifelong Shattuck resident and has been involved with the museum since its inception in 1994. Its founder was a local lady named Phillis Ballew. Doug told me: “Phillis Ballew came back to retire in this community and in her wanting to put up a windmill like her grandad had, she found someone to restore a windmill and he stated he wanted to start a windmill museum, and Phillis thought that would be a good idea."The restorer’s name was Marvin Stinson and he went on to loan Phillis four of his own windmills to get the place started. She then put an ad in the paper asking for volunteers to come and help. Doug was one of those who responded: “At our first official meeting we had nine people there. The next one, we had twenty-some people. We formed a board and decided to go ahead with the process.” Doug Schoenhals standing inside one of the Museum's storage/workshop buildings(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )Shirley Lorenz has also involved since the museum’s early days: “I knew Phillis as a child, we were childhood friends. When she came back here and started working on the park, we had a lot more contact and I said: “You know, you have to do it. It’s the history of this area.” I told her then that I would do whatever I could for the windmill park as long as I could. She has subsequently died and so we are keeping it going."Doug took me to see Phillis’s windmill – the one that got this whole place going. It’s kept inside to protect it. It’s called an Eclipse and is a large and rather magnificent object painted in a gleaming red and tan. Stinson evidently did an excellent job restoring it.When Doug stepped down as the Museum’s president in 2022, Van Hurst took over. He’s a comparatively recent addition to the volunteer ranks. He told me how he became involved: “A number of years ago, I was purchasing the land out west of Shattuck of Mrs Ballew. On that land there was this old windmill, and we didn’t fully realize that it had been donated to the Museum until after the fact.”"Wait a minute," I responded. “Does that you bought this land thinking came with a windmill and it didn’t?"Van laughed and continued: “It was not clarified in our minds that it was already given to the windmill museum until someone approached us, and we said ‘What? Well good. They can have it.' A wooden windmill without maintenance in this part of the country will finally fall to pieces, so I was delighted that Mrs Ballew had made arrangements."Even though Van is a relative newbie at the Museum, he came with a great deal of windmill experience: “I grew up with windmills as a source of water for our farm, north of Shattuck here, about 15 miles. And they have to be serviced regularly. Someone needs to climb up to the top, take the top off of the windmill, change the oil or be sure that it has oil in it. Well, you’ve got to realize that that’s quite a way up and when it’s turning, we need to be sure that it stops or it could knock you off. We’re supposed to put the brakes on and stop it. However, the brakes often malfunction, so I find that adventuresome. And we always appreciated having water."All of the windmills in the museum are designed to be set over a well and pump water to the surface because those were the kinds of windmills used in this area. As Doug explained: “When the Cherokee outlet run opened in 1893, the land that was claimed was by creeks, rivers, and so on. The rest of it, they called it uninhabitable. Shortly thereafter, a lot of people started importing windmills and so the land became habitable.” Volunteers at work at the Shattuck Windmill Museum(Shirley Lorenz / Shattuck Windmill Museum)When the Museum started, its windmills were all from places close by, many of them produced by the same manufacturers, so initially its collection lacked variety. That changed after Mrs Ballew joined a windmill association she had learned about from Marvin Stinson. There she found all kinds of windmills and so the Museum began acquiring them from further afield. I was curious about what it takes to transport a windmill, and imagined one strapped to the back of a huge truck. However, Doug told me they are taken apart first and then arrive in the form of “little piles of junk” which then have to been painstakingly reassembled.Most of the Museum’s windmills are kept outside. One of the most eye-catching – due to its size and location – is Railroad Eclipse which stands right next to the road. Doug explained that “The Santa Fe needed a lot of water whenever they expanded their route to the west. So they tried to put a windmill every seven miles. That way they had water to generate the steam.”As we heard, the museum started out with four windmills. It now has 64 altogether. In the process, the Museum has garnered quite the reputation amongst people interested in windmills, many of whom attend the annual windmill trade fair. Shirley said: “Every year, wind millers from around the world get together to buy, sell, and trade, chat and chew, and gossip, and whatever it is they do. And we one last year. It’s the third one we’ve had in Shattuck and they ask to come back to Shattuck.” Early American Settlers in front of Windmill(T. Lindsay Baker/American Windmills / T. Lindsay Baker/American Windmills)Shattuck is also very well-known locally, not least thanks to the columns that Shirley writes regularly for a couple of the area’s newspapers and which have given her the chance to learn a great deal about windmills and the role they played in this region: "We always think of windmills as the life-force because they brought water to the surface. But as I was doing research, I found out that windmills served another psychological and emotional purpose. When the pioneers came here, this was extremely flat land. There was no vertical relief. The windmill provided that. When you travel, you go to have your pictures made and you look for a structure that goes up. I don’t care if it’s the Eiffel Tower, the Washington Tower, Mount Rushmore. It can be anything. When you look at pictures of the pioneers, so often they are gathered around the windmill. And when you were in the country driving along, sometimes you would see a windmill that was off the road. You could not see the farmhouse but you knew someone lived there because there was a windmill."Before I left, Shirley commented on the age of the Museum’s personnel: “Our volunteer group, almost all are in their 70s and 80s. The reality is that a lot of the young people today do not have the connection to the windmills that the older ones do, and I want to make certain that the young people here today have some understanding of and appreciation for what the ancestors did and what it meant to the people here.”I certainly felt grateful for all I had learned about windmills and the vital role they played in this area. And I’d like to say special thanks to E A Reeh and Sharon Schultz Bradshaw, both whom I also met during my visit to Shattuck.(E. A. Reeh / E. A. Reeh)How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. And please remember, if you have an Oklahoma-related question you’d like us to investigate, please email us a <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>.

How was a windmill mecca established in Shattuck, OK?

Kelly Kraegel - owner of OKC's Cottonwood Creek Ranch - at the Annual Morgan Horse Show(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)HOW CURIOUS EPISODE: Oklahoma and the Morgan HorseEvery year since 1975, the annual Grand National and World Championship Morgan Horse Show has drawn hundreds of horses and thousands of humans to Oklahoma City’s State Fair Park. However, until shortly before I moved to Norman, Oklahoma, in 2022 to join KGOU, I’d never heard of a Morgan horse. Then a friend, learning of my imminent relocation, exclaimed, “my family goes there every year for the Morgan Horse show.” “A Morgan horse, what’s that?” I asked. “It’s one of the first American breeds,” she said. “It’s from Vermont.”I became intrigued: What was the history of the Morgan horse? What’s so special about it? How does a breed become a breed? And why, if it’s from Vermont, does its biggest show happen in OKC? A Morgan Horse from Hallmark Farms, Edmond, OK(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)That last question Kelly Kraegel was quickly able to put to rest. She’s vice president of the American Morgan Horse Association. She’s also owner of the Cottonwood Creek Ranch Morgan horse facility that’s located only minutes from the show. “I don’t think there’s any better horse facility than our facility here. But it’s also right in the middle of the country so everybody has an opportunity to get here.”To learn about Morgan horse history, I turned to Amanda Gustin who is Director of Collections and Access at the Vermont Historical Society. She told me that the very first Morgan horse was named Figure, however the breed name comes Figure’s one time owner Justin Morgan. Although little is known about Figure, some facts regarding Justin Morgan’s life are available: “He was born in 1747 in West Springfield, Massachusetts and did a lot of different things in his early life. He initially goes into farming, he also does a little bit of tavern keeping, and he’s a composer, and he also does what is called at the time 'stallioneering'.”This is where we come to Figure. It appears Morgan acquired him just before he moved to Vermont in 1788 and then quickly started advertising him for breeding. For example, in one ad, Morgan wrote that “the greatest recommend that I can give him is he exceeding sure and gets curious colts”. As Amanda explained, Morgan used the word curious in a slightly different sense to how we normally use it today. What he was effectively saying was this horse is “interesting and exciting. It’s definitely for sure something you want to check out.”And check him out people did, his descendants too. Kelly Kraegel told me what she finds so special about Morgan horses: “I had been around a lot of different breeds of horses, but once we got that first Morgan – it’s just a totally different kind of horse. To me, their personalities are just a lot more like a dog. They love people, they crave attention.” I commented to her that I had heard that the slogan for Morgan Horses is that “they’re the horse that chooses you” so was that the kind of thing that Kelly was referring to? She agreed enthusiastically: “This is exactly what I’m talking about. They do. I mean the horses in my barn know their owners. They can hear their owner’s voice coming in the barn and you’ll hear their horse nickering and carrying on in the stall, even before I know the owner’s there."Mallory Mignot, who is originally from France but who is now based at Hallmark Farms in Edmond, Okla., agrees: “They’re beautiful horses. They’re athletic horses, easy to train, fun to train. And versatile. And that’s what I love about them.”Amanda Gustin confirms the Morgan horse breed reputation for versatility: “It’s historically known as all-purpose breed of horse. They can plow your fields. They can be fancy enough to take you to church. They can be quiet enough for children but exciting enough to show off in a race. They really have an extraordinary capacity for a lot of different things." And these qualities are immediately obvious in the stories that people tell about this first horse. Here’s one of them: For a time while Justin Morgan owned the horse, he leased him to a local man named Robert Evans. And Evans was using this horse to haul away logs and make fields out of forest. And after a long day of work, Evans was bringing Figure back down into town when he came across two huge draft horses pulling a log to the local sawmill, except they weren’t pulling it anymore, they had stopped. They were completely unable to move this huge log any further. And Evans immediately said, “Oh. My horse will take that log the rest of the way, no problem.” No one believed him as it was relatively small horse. So Evans says, “Okay, let’s make it a real challenge. Put a couple of men on it and bet me a gallon of whiskey.” Now everyone’s in it, so men stand on this log. They hitch the Morgan horse up to this log. He gives one heave, it doesn’t move. He gives a second heave and hauls this huge log, that two enormous horses were not able to budge, all the way to the sawmill. Justin Morgan had a Horse by Margaret Henry(Rand McNally /  Rand McNally)The log challenge story and many others told about Figure through the decades eventually wound up in Marguerite Henry’s Justin Morgan had a Horse. This hugely popular children’s book was first published in 1945 and later turned into a film by Disney. Many of the people I met at the Morgan Horse show told me that they first got into the breed because of Justin Morgan had a horse. The popularity of Marguerite Henry’s enchanting blend of fiction and fact continues today, helping to bring riders as young as two to the event. But although Figure is lauded for building his reputation from scratch, pedigree is going to be central to the establishment of the Morgan Horse breed, though not the only factor.According to Amanda Gustin: “To have a breed of animal you need a couple of things. You have to have a common set of physical characteristics – in the Morgan horse that is a certain kind of size, a certain kind of stockiness, a certain set of close coupled hind quarters, an upright neck, little short back. And you also have to have a way to keep track of bloodlines. So the Morgan horse registry is actually going to get started with a man named Joseph Battell, and what he really does is obsessively document horses that can trace their lineage back to this first horse and setting up these pedigrees. He’s publishing these lists and lists and lists of horses. Others take up his work, and eventually those early books are incorporated as the stud books of the American Morgan Horse Association.” The Annual World Championship Morgan Horse Show, Oklahoma City, 2022(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )That Association was established in 1909. Today, approximately 90,000 horses are registered on its books, about thousand of which regularly convene at Grand National and World Championship Show. It’s a vast event that involves huge amounts of preparation for the horses, for the people involved, and for grounds. As Kelly Kraegel said to me: “The fairgrounds in Oklahoma City are beautiful on their own, but what we all do is build freestanding structures and deck our stalls out. It originally started more for privacy reasons – even though some people might really like to be able to watch in the changing room, none of us ladies appreciate that. Then it just grew over the years because this is such a big deal for us. So if you do come here, you’ll see that there are a lot of elaborate barns. I’ve set my barn up as an old western town and it’s called the Cottonwood Creek Saloon and we have a jail, we have a church, we may or may not have a brothel,” she laughed.Kelly, who had showed a horse just before I met with her, was also looking pretty fancy: “I have a white cowboy hat on. I have some glorious sparkly earrings. Probably too much makeup. I have a beautiful white leather jacket with some gold lace and some rhinestones on it. My mother passed away probably about six years ago, but she made all of my outfits, so every time I show, I get to ride with a piece of my mum with me, which I love."Participating in the Morgan Show also prompts fond memories for Mallory Mignot: “My boss, Susan Morey, she was diagnosed with ALS two years ago and I watched her go through that disease and she passed away last December. And she was here showing last year. She couldn’t feel her legs and couldn’t feel her hips. It was the most incredible thing to see that horse take care of her. And she was an incredible show-woman. And through the disease – watching her keeping on fighting, and having the horse really lift her – it was the most beautiful thing.” As my conversation with Mallory came to an end, I asked if she wanted to share any closing thoughts. “Get a Morgan horse,” was her response.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Rachel Hopkin and edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. For this episode, special thanks to Virginia Siegel, Mary Shappey (owner of Majik Stables in Norman), Sarah Duncan, C A Lee III, Kelly McFaul, and Alyssa Plewacki.Remember, if you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org.  

Kelly Kraegel - owner of OKC's Cottonwood Creek Ranch - at the Annual Morgan Horse Show(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)HOW CURIOUS EPISODE: Oklahoma and the Morgan HorseEvery year since 1975, the annual Grand National and World Championship Morgan Horse Show has drawn hundreds of horses and thousands of humans to Oklahoma City’s State Fair Park. However, until shortly before I moved to Norman, Oklahoma, in 2022 to join KGOU, I’d never heard of a Morgan horse. Then a friend, learning of my imminent relocation, exclaimed, “my family goes there every year for the Morgan Horse show.” “A Morgan horse, what’s that?” I asked. “It’s one of the first American breeds,” she said. “It’s from Vermont.”I became intrigued: What was the history of the Morgan horse? What’s so special about it? How does a breed become a breed? And why, if it’s from Vermont, does its biggest show happen in OKC? A Morgan Horse from Hallmark Farms, Edmond, OK(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)That last question Kelly Kraegel was quickly able to put to rest. She’s vice president of the American Morgan Horse Association. She’s also owner of the Cottonwood Creek Ranch Morgan horse facility that’s located only minutes from the show. “I don’t think there’s any better horse facility than our facility here. But it’s also right in the middle of the country so everybody has an opportunity to get here.”To learn about Morgan horse history, I turned to Amanda Gustin who is Director of Collections and Access at the Vermont Historical Society. She told me that the very first Morgan horse was named Figure, however the breed name comes Figure’s one time owner Justin Morgan. Although little is known about Figure, some facts regarding Justin Morgan’s life are available: “He was born in 1747 in West Springfield, Massachusetts and did a lot of different things in his early life. He initially goes into farming, he also does a little bit of tavern keeping, and he’s a composer, and he also does what is called at the time 'stallioneering'.”This is where we come to Figure. It appears Morgan acquired him just before he moved to Vermont in 1788 and then quickly started advertising him for breeding. For example, in one ad, Morgan wrote that “the greatest recommend that I can give him is he exceeding sure and gets curious colts”. As Amanda explained, Morgan used the word curious in a slightly different sense to how we normally use it today. What he was effectively saying was this horse is “interesting and exciting. It’s definitely for sure something you want to check out.”And check him out people did, his descendants too. Kelly Kraegel told me what she finds so special about Morgan horses: “I had been around a lot of different breeds of horses, but once we got that first Morgan – it’s just a totally different kind of horse. To me, their personalities are just a lot more like a dog. They love people, they crave attention.” I commented to her that I had heard that the slogan for Morgan Horses is that “they’re the horse that chooses you” so was that the kind of thing that Kelly was referring to? She agreed enthusiastically: “This is exactly what I’m talking about. They do. I mean the horses in my barn know their owners. They can hear their owner’s voice coming in the barn and you’ll hear their horse nickering and carrying on in the stall, even before I know the owner’s there."Mallory Mignot, who is originally from France but who is now based at Hallmark Farms in Edmond, Okla., agrees: “They’re beautiful horses. They’re athletic horses, easy to train, fun to train. And versatile. And that’s what I love about them.”Amanda Gustin confirms the Morgan horse breed reputation for versatility: “It’s historically known as all-purpose breed of horse. They can plow your fields. They can be fancy enough to take you to church. They can be quiet enough for children but exciting enough to show off in a race. They really have an extraordinary capacity for a lot of different things." And these qualities are immediately obvious in the stories that people tell about this first horse. Here’s one of them: For a time while Justin Morgan owned the horse, he leased him to a local man named Robert Evans. And Evans was using this horse to haul away logs and make fields out of forest. And after a long day of work, Evans was bringing Figure back down into town when he came across two huge draft horses pulling a log to the local sawmill, except they weren’t pulling it anymore, they had stopped. They were completely unable to move this huge log any further. And Evans immediately said, “Oh. My horse will take that log the rest of the way, no problem.” No one believed him as it was relatively small horse. So Evans says, “Okay, let’s make it a real challenge. Put a couple of men on it and bet me a gallon of whiskey.” Now everyone’s in it, so men stand on this log. They hitch the Morgan horse up to this log. He gives one heave, it doesn’t move. He gives a second heave and hauls this huge log, that two enormous horses were not able to budge, all the way to the sawmill. Justin Morgan had a Horse by Margaret Henry(Rand McNally / Rand McNally)The log challenge story and many others told about Figure through the decades eventually wound up in Marguerite Henry’s Justin Morgan had a Horse. This hugely popular children’s book was first published in 1945 and later turned into a film by Disney. Many of the people I met at the Morgan Horse show told me that they first got into the breed because of Justin Morgan had a horse. The popularity of Marguerite Henry’s enchanting blend of fiction and fact continues today, helping to bring riders as young as two to the event. But although Figure is lauded for building his reputation from scratch, pedigree is going to be central to the establishment of the Morgan Horse breed, though not the only factor.According to Amanda Gustin: “To have a breed of animal you need a couple of things. You have to have a common set of physical characteristics – in the Morgan horse that is a certain kind of size, a certain kind of stockiness, a certain set of close coupled hind quarters, an upright neck, little short back. And you also have to have a way to keep track of bloodlines. So the Morgan horse registry is actually going to get started with a man named Joseph Battell, and what he really does is obsessively document horses that can trace their lineage back to this first horse and setting up these pedigrees. He’s publishing these lists and lists and lists of horses. Others take up his work, and eventually those early books are incorporated as the stud books of the American Morgan Horse Association.” The Annual World Championship Morgan Horse Show, Oklahoma City, 2022(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )That Association was established in 1909. Today, approximately 90,000 horses are registered on its books, about thousand of which regularly convene at Grand National and World Championship Show. It’s a vast event that involves huge amounts of preparation for the horses, for the people involved, and for grounds. As Kelly Kraegel said to me: “The fairgrounds in Oklahoma City are beautiful on their own, but what we all do is build freestanding structures and deck our stalls out. It originally started more for privacy reasons – even though some people might really like to be able to watch in the changing room, none of us ladies appreciate that. Then it just grew over the years because this is such a big deal for us. So if you do come here, you’ll see that there are a lot of elaborate barns. I’ve set my barn up as an old western town and it’s called the Cottonwood Creek Saloon and we have a jail, we have a church, we may or may not have a brothel,” she laughed.Kelly, who had showed a horse just before I met with her, was also looking pretty fancy: “I have a white cowboy hat on. I have some glorious sparkly earrings. Probably too much makeup. I have a beautiful white leather jacket with some gold lace and some rhinestones on it. My mother passed away probably about six years ago, but she made all of my outfits, so every time I show, I get to ride with a piece of my mum with me, which I love."Participating in the Morgan Show also prompts fond memories for Mallory Mignot: “My boss, Susan Morey, she was diagnosed with ALS two years ago and I watched her go through that disease and she passed away last December. And she was here showing last year. She couldn’t feel her legs and couldn’t feel her hips. It was the most incredible thing to see that horse take care of her. And she was an incredible show-woman. And through the disease – watching her keeping on fighting, and having the horse really lift her – it was the most beautiful thing.” As my conversation with Mallory came to an end, I asked if she wanted to share any closing thoughts. “Get a Morgan horse,” was her response.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Rachel Hopkin and edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. For this episode, special thanks to Virginia Siegel, Mary Shappey (owner of Majik Stables in Norman), Sarah Duncan, C A Lee III, Kelly McFaul, and Alyssa Plewacki.Remember, if you have an Oklahoma-related question, email <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>.

Why is OKC central to the Morgan horse world?

Exploring Oklahoma legends, tall tales, oddities, and conundrums. Heard something you're curious about? Submit questions and suggestions for future episodes to curious@kgou.org.

Martha Kramer holding a picture of herself and her father(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )For years, an audio phenomenon baffled and infuriated users of Citizen Band Radio’s Channel 19 – also known as the “Truckers’ Channel” – in the Oklahoma area and beyond. It was How Curious Listener Alex Lanphere who brought this to KGOU’s attention. He used to hear it when he had a CB radio in his truck. He recalls it as “this powerful full blanking signal that drowned out everybody else who was talking. And it would read: ‘I got my little pink panties on, my night gown, and I’m ready for bed.’ And that message went on for years. I was just always really fascinated by this because it was just so strange and bizarre."Alex had already done some web-sleuthing of his own before he turned to How Curious. He’d found an obituary notice for the man behind the strange message which showed that his name was Klaus Kramer. Alex asked me to find out more about Kramer and any other characters involved in the weird communication.I quickly learned that Klaus Kramer also went by the name of Mike and that his CB handle was “Bam Bam.” But before I went on the trail of Kramer himself, I wanted to see if I could find anyone on Channel 19 who remembered Bam Bam. KGOU listener Kyle Fore kindly allowed me to use the CB in his truck. Alas, I got no response, though Kyle himself recalled hearing about the message from a friend.Someone I knew must have heard it was Texas songwriter and musician, Dale Watson, because he had based a song on it. It’s called Truckin’ Queen and Dale explained how came to write it: “The inspiration was going through Oklahoma City and hearing that broadcast. He had it on a loop and the truckers were very annoyed by it and they’d get their dander up big time. Also there was this episode on the TV show Cops and they had this trucker who was a transvestite, and he just looked like a bearded trucker, so I imagined that’s what this guy looked like. I tell my audience whenever I do this song ‘It’s kinda like a Loch Ness Monster or Big Foot; something you hear about but never see’, so I made the story go along with the song."Texan musician and song-writer Dale Watson(Dale Watson /  https://www.dalewatson.com)After chatting with Dale, I wanted to talk to someone who’d known Kramer personally. By coincidence, it turned out that KGOU’s Chief Engineer, Patrick Roberts, had been friends with him. Patrick told me that Kramer had owned Mike’s Cycle Shop in Oklahoma City. Patrick described him as an interesting character who was comfortable breaking rules. Kramer’s repeating Panties message was certainly doing that. The strength of the signal that Kramer used to ensure his voice cut across everything else on Channel 19 was well over the legal limit of 4 watts for CB radios. When I asked how Kramer had managed this, Patrick said: “Keep in mind the guy was pretty good with electronics. And, with Mike, the more he got a reaction out of something, the more he wanted to do it. Hence he’ll build 1500 watts of power out of the house, cos 500 wouldn’t do the job.” Klaus "Mike" Kramer( Martha Kramer)Thanks to Patrick, I was able to get in contact with Kramer’s daughter, Martha, and went to visit her at her busy family home in OKC. She told me more about the lengths her father went to ensure that his message would be shared loud, far, and wide. They included renting the roof of a physicians’ office on Shartel Avenue in to put up transmitter towers. He also had some at his cycle shop and had a 500 foot tower erected at his home in Bridge Creek. Martha recalls that he offered her $500 “if I would climb to the top and put a pair of red panties on the top of it. I got about a quarter of the way up and I got so scared, I came down. But he, at the age of 70, climbed up and he tied a pair of red panties on the top of that tower, and they were there the day that I sold his house.”From what I heard from Martha and Patrick, it seemed Kramer had created a very elaborate hoax that required a fair bit of technological know-how and presumably also cost quite a bit. Martha agreed that it had been very expensive. But why did he do all this, I wanted to know. Was it really just to annoy truck drivers using CB Channel 19? Martha confirmed that this indeed been the case. “That was his whole purpose,” she said. “A lot of times he would hear them, and they would talk ‘where are you at? We’re gonna come find you’. And he’d be like ‘Yeah. F*** you’. He would mess with them so much. It was crazy, but it gave him so much joy.” When I commented that he sounded totally nuts, Martha immediately agreed: “My dad was completely nutty. And the more backlash he would get, the stronger he would make the signal.”I wanted to know how Kramer had come up with his infamous message. Would Martha know? As it turns out, not only did she know, but she had unwittingly helped to generate it. She would often play with the CB radio alongside her father: “he would have me get on there and pretend that I was a lot lizard. A lot lizard is a prostitute that stands outside of truck stops. And so I would. I would just say ‘Hey, I’m here at the Love Stop on I-35. And I got my nightgown on and I have pretty red panties on. And I’m ready to get in your truck’. Then they would say ‘Well who’s your handler?’ and he would say ‘Bam Bam’. And it was hilarious.” Martha told me that she would have been around 14 or 15 at the time. I was rather taken aback. After all, encouraging one’s teenage daughter to imitate a prostitute is hardly standard parenting practice. However, Martha – who is mother of four and has worked as a nurse for over 20 years – insists that the experience brought no adverse effects, only treasured memories.Meanwhile, the strength of Kramer’s various technological concoctions was exceeding the legal limit of 4 watts many times over. In 2001, the Federal Communication Commission cracked down on him. They initially just confiscated his equipment but when Kramer responded by setting up more and continuing his broadcasts, they issued him with a fine for $10,000 which he eventually paid. Even after that, Kramer continued cramming up Channel 19 with his message but using significantly less power.Martha spoke of her father’s strange hobby with affection: “It was his entertainment and he loved it. He didn’t have a lot of family. He came here when he was 13 from Germany. His mother had passed away. So he really just had me and my children. He was a lonely guy and that’s what he did for fun.”If any reader of this page happens to have a copy of a recording of Klaus Kramer himself saying his infamous message, please do get in touch with me at curious@kgou.orgSpecial thanks to Robby Korth and Mark Kleine.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

Martha Kramer holding a picture of herself and her father(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU )For years, an audio phenomenon baffled and infuriated users of Citizen Band Radio’s Channel 19 – also known as the “Truckers’ Channel” – in the Oklahoma area and beyond. It was How Curious Listener Alex Lanphere who brought this to KGOU’s attention. He used to hear it when he had a CB radio in his truck. He recalls it as “this powerful full blanking signal that drowned out everybody else who was talking. And it would read: ‘I got my little pink panties on, my night gown, and I’m ready for bed.’ And that message went on for years. I was just always really fascinated by this because it was just so strange and bizarre."Alex had already done some web-sleuthing of his own before he turned to How Curious. He’d found an obituary notice for the man behind the strange message which showed that his name was Klaus Kramer. Alex asked me to find out more about Kramer and any other characters involved in the weird communication.I quickly learned that Klaus Kramer also went by the name of Mike and that his CB handle was “Bam Bam.” But before I went on the trail of Kramer himself, I wanted to see if I could find anyone on Channel 19 who remembered Bam Bam. KGOU listener Kyle Fore kindly allowed me to use the CB in his truck. Alas, I got no response, though Kyle himself recalled hearing about the message from a friend.Someone I knew must have heard it was Texas songwriter and musician, Dale Watson, because he had based a song on it. It’s called Truckin’ Queen and Dale explained how came to write it: “The inspiration was going through Oklahoma City and hearing that broadcast. He had it on a loop and the truckers were very annoyed by it and they’d get their dander up big time. Also there was this episode on the TV show Cops and they had this trucker who was a transvestite, and he just looked like a bearded trucker, so I imagined that’s what this guy looked like. I tell my audience whenever I do this song ‘It’s kinda like a Loch Ness Monster or Big Foot; something you hear about but never see’, so I made the story go along with the song."Texan musician and song-writer Dale Watson(Dale Watson / <a href="https://www.dalewatson.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.dalewatson.com</a>)After chatting with Dale, I wanted to talk to someone who’d known Kramer personally. By coincidence, it turned out that KGOU’s Chief Engineer, Patrick Roberts, had been friends with him. Patrick told me that Kramer had owned Mike’s Cycle Shop in Oklahoma City. Patrick described him as an interesting character who was comfortable breaking rules. Kramer’s repeating Panties message was certainly doing that. The strength of the signal that Kramer used to ensure his voice cut across everything else on Channel 19 was well over the legal limit of 4 watts for CB radios. When I asked how Kramer had managed this, Patrick said: “Keep in mind the guy was pretty good with electronics. And, with Mike, the more he got a reaction out of something, the more he wanted to do it. Hence he’ll build 1500 watts of power out of the house, cos 500 wouldn’t do the job.” Klaus "Mike" Kramer( Martha Kramer)Thanks to Patrick, I was able to get in contact with Kramer’s daughter, Martha, and went to visit her at her busy family home in OKC. She told me more about the lengths her father went to ensure that his message would be shared loud, far, and wide. They included renting the roof of a physicians’ office on Shartel Avenue in to put up transmitter towers. He also had some at his cycle shop and had a 500 foot tower erected at his home in Bridge Creek. Martha recalls that he offered her $500 “if I would climb to the top and put a pair of red panties on the top of it. I got about a quarter of the way up and I got so scared, I came down. But he, at the age of 70, climbed up and he tied a pair of red panties on the top of that tower, and they were there the day that I sold his house.”From what I heard from Martha and Patrick, it seemed Kramer had created a very elaborate hoax that required a fair bit of technological know-how and presumably also cost quite a bit. Martha agreed that it had been very expensive. But why did he do all this, I wanted to know. Was it really just to annoy truck drivers using CB Channel 19? Martha confirmed that this indeed been the case. “That was his whole purpose,” she said. “A lot of times he would hear them, and they would talk ‘where are you at? We’re gonna come find you’. And he’d be like ‘Yeah. F*** you’. He would mess with them so much. It was crazy, but it gave him so much joy.” When I commented that he sounded totally nuts, Martha immediately agreed: “My dad was completely nutty. And the more backlash he would get, the stronger he would make the signal.”I wanted to know how Kramer had come up with his infamous message. Would Martha know? As it turns out, not only did she know, but she had unwittingly helped to generate it. She would often play with the CB radio alongside her father: “he would have me get on there and pretend that I was a lot lizard. A lot lizard is a prostitute that stands outside of truck stops. And so I would. I would just say ‘Hey, I’m here at the Love Stop on I-35. And I got my nightgown on and I have pretty red panties on. And I’m ready to get in your truck’. Then they would say ‘Well who’s your handler?’ and he would say ‘Bam Bam’. And it was hilarious.” Martha told me that she would have been around 14 or 15 at the time. I was rather taken aback. After all, encouraging one’s teenage daughter to imitate a prostitute is hardly standard parenting practice. However, Martha – who is mother of four and has worked as a nurse for over 20 years – insists that the experience brought no adverse effects, only treasured memories.Meanwhile, the strength of Kramer’s various technological concoctions was exceeding the legal limit of 4 watts many times over. In 2001, the Federal Communication Commission cracked down on him. They initially just confiscated his equipment but when Kramer responded by setting up more and continuing his broadcasts, they issued him with a fine for $10,000 which he eventually paid. Even after that, Kramer continued cramming up Channel 19 with his message but using significantly less power.Martha spoke of her father’s strange hobby with affection: “It was his entertainment and he loved it. He didn’t have a lot of family. He came here when he was 13 from Germany. His mother had passed away. So he really just had me and my children. He was a lonely guy and that’s what he did for fun.”If any reader of this page happens to have a copy of a recording of Klaus Kramer himself saying his infamous message, please do get in touch with me at <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>Special thanks to Robby Korth and Mark Kleine.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

Why are a pair of pretty red panties so significant to Oklahoma?

A photograph from the early 20th century of the building Kendall's now occupiesKendall’s Restaurant has been a fixture of downtown Noble, Oklahoma, since the mid 1980s, and for most of its existence, Kim Lock and Dee Downer have been co-owners. The place is well known for its comfort food menu – including massive chicken fried steaks and wonderfully fresh cinnamon rolls. When I visited, Kim took me on a tour of the place, starting with a room she referred to as “the kids’ room” because it used to have toys in it: “When we first began to really discover that we had something here, we had an area over here that had toys, and you would come in in the morning and the toys would be all over the floor.” The staff were supposed to take the toys away each night to be run through the dishwasher and then returned in an orderly manner. “I thought they were not doing that until one night when I left, our alarm went off. I came back and I had closed up, I had turned all the lights off, I had cleared everything up. I returned. All the lights were on in the entire building and when I came back here, the toys were everywhere. Since then, when we have had OKPRI, this is the room they get the most activity out of." (OKPRI stands for Oklahoma Paranormal Research and Investigations and I'll return to them below.)Kendall’s is located on the sites of what used to be several different businesses, including the Stufflebean grocery store, a funeral home, and some stables. After showing me around the restaurant, Kim and I sat down to chat. I commented to her that I found the idea of ghosts being around me scary, but she didn’t feel the same. Instead she said she felt protected by them and went on to explain: “About a year ago I was in here by myself and I had the food in the oven. I remembered I had forgotten something at the store. While I was at the store, I realized I had left the food in the oven and there was no possible way it wasn’t going to burn up. I just was sick. The whole way home I’m thinking ‘what am I going to do? I’m going to have to redo this. I don’t have time’. I walk in and the oven doors are both standing wide open and the food is fine. Someone had opened the oven doors which are extremely heavy, they’re commercial ovens. There was no one in the building except me so I just said ‘thank you very much’. It was an absolute gift and so Dee and I often say that they help me and they don’t help him."Of course, I asked Dee to tell me more and he described an incident which had taken place on the same day that Kim’s baking had been saved: “I was getting brewed iced tea started. Moved an urn over, started another one. Went off. Came back in, and both of the spouts were open and it was just pouring on the floor. And I’m like ‘well it’s nice that they’re helping you but they’re making my life hard. Golly'. But after things like that, you’re just like ‘well we’re here with other things going on.’” Kendall's Co-Owners - Dee Downer and Kim Lock(Rachel Hopkin /  KGOU)Dee and Kim are by no means the only ones to have experienced odd goings-on at the restaurant. I learned more when I spoke with Peyton Allen and Michelle Goad.Peyton worked at Kendall’s for around five years: “There’s a couple of times whenever I was closing that I would be sweeping. Back then we would have silverware already set in our little packages; I would set all of those out after I was done sweeping, and there was one time when I was going to dump my dirty pan and I came back and there were about three or four tables where the silverware had completely flown off the table. There would be a lot of times when I would hear my name being called. They would also like dump the pepper. Just goofy things. The only one that I’ve experienced in front of you would be like when they tug your hair or the back of your shirt. That’s why I think one of them has to be a kiddo because they’re trying to get your attention, you know, but they’re short so that’s where they would tug.” Peyton Allen(Kendall's  Restaurant)Meanwhile, Michelle was a childhood friend of one of Kim’s daughters and they often used to play together in the aforementioned kids’ room: “I saw a man. I kept hearing him over and over just kind of counting, quietly. And there was a lady that I saw walking through towards the kitchen area and she was dressed all in black and she didn’t look like a regular person. In a way she was almost see-through. But she was just walking through the kitchen area. And I knew she wasn’t supposed to be there. I had mentioned it and everyone ignored it.”It wasn’t until many years later that Michelle came to understand that the old man and the woman in black she saw as a child were ghosts. That she did so was down to the work of Oklahoma Paranormal Research and Investigations (OKPRI). Christy Clark Powell is its founder and director. She told me that her team have investigated hundreds of places, in many of which, they find no paranormal activity at all. OKPRI’s historian, Kathryn Wickham, concurred: “We try to disprove first. We have devices that measure if there are electrical problems in the building. We came in with our equipment and an open mind and just spent time in each of the rooms, recorded some audio, and documented our personal experiences.”At Kendall’s, they were definitely able to detect activity that interested them. Christy told me "Our audio recorders were actually able to pick several EVPs which stands for Electronic Voice Phenomena or voices of the dead. We had a couple of our members who were touched physically, and just kind of that creepy feeling of being watched when no one else was around. So we do feel that there is something going on at Kendall’s that cannot be explained by logical explanation.”Christy is a medium and told me that she also encountered some distinct figures which recalled those already described here by Michelle Goad and Peyton Allen: “One of them was the banker. He was in a pinstripe suit and had this little Derby hat. His name was Theodore. And he was asking me about this bank. ‘Where’s the bank?’ And I told him I didn’t know and then he disappeared. I do believe with him that he was the owner of the bank across the street. There is a little girl that is seen there. She followed us around a lot and didn’t say a whole lot about herself. Wanted to play. We would catch her giggling. And there was a woman. She had told me her name was Margaret. She was dressed all in black, and she was very pale, dark eyed. Sometimes when I see spirits, I’ll also see little visions of their life and there was some sort of rejection that happened and I seen her very upset and I seen her weeping. Afterwards I seen her collect oleander leaves and put them together in her food and consumed that which led to her death.” Oklahoma Paranormal and Research Investigations( Oklahoma Paranormal and Research Investigations)For my own part, I don’t consider myself a skeptic or a believer. I simply don’t think much about the paranormal. But I had definitely become intrigued by this stage. Why, I asked Christy, did she think spirits would stick around? She responded “I do believe everyone is given the chance to cross over. There are some who choose not to and those are the ones that we call earth-bound spirits. Maybe they were religious and they’ve been taught about a fiery hell all their lives so they’re scared. Or maybe it’s because they still have loved ones here who are mourning them and they feel like they’re needed. Or maybe they died tragically and they’re confused. They still feel like they are here physically in this form. There’s just a variety of reasons why they’re here.”This is a subject that Kim Lock has also thought about: “I’ve prayed and we’ve had ceremonies that if there is release for them to leave. I assume that they like it. I assume that they’re attached to this building. I don't know. Who knows? I may stay whenever I go. I believe personally and in this restaurant that we honour and respect life from past and present. I don't know about you but I’ve lost a lot of people that I loved, and I don't know that they’re walking around here although they may be, but I do know that there is connection to whatever happens after this, and that is comforting. That is beyond comforting. I’m going to respect them and be grateful that I get to share their space."How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

A photograph from the early 20th century of the building Kendall's now occupiesKendall’s Restaurant has been a fixture of downtown Noble, Oklahoma, since the mid 1980s, and for most of its existence, Kim Lock and Dee Downer have been co-owners. The place is well known for its comfort food menu – including massive chicken fried steaks and wonderfully fresh cinnamon rolls. When I visited, Kim took me on a tour of the place, starting with a room she referred to as “the kids’ room” because it used to have toys in it: “When we first began to really discover that we had something here, we had an area over here that had toys, and you would come in in the morning and the toys would be all over the floor.” The staff were supposed to take the toys away each night to be run through the dishwasher and then returned in an orderly manner. “I thought they were not doing that until one night when I left, our alarm went off. I came back and I had closed up, I had turned all the lights off, I had cleared everything up. I returned. All the lights were on in the entire building and when I came back here, the toys were everywhere. Since then, when we have had OKPRI, this is the room they get the most activity out of." (OKPRI stands for Oklahoma Paranormal Research and Investigations and I'll return to them below.)Kendall’s is located on the sites of what used to be several different businesses, including the Stufflebean grocery store, a funeral home, and some stables. After showing me around the restaurant, Kim and I sat down to chat. I commented to her that I found the idea of ghosts being around me scary, but she didn’t feel the same. Instead she said she felt protected by them and went on to explain: “About a year ago I was in here by myself and I had the food in the oven. I remembered I had forgotten something at the store. While I was at the store, I realized I had left the food in the oven and there was no possible way it wasn’t going to burn up. I just was sick. The whole way home I’m thinking ‘what am I going to do? I’m going to have to redo this. I don’t have time’. I walk in and the oven doors are both standing wide open and the food is fine. Someone had opened the oven doors which are extremely heavy, they’re commercial ovens. There was no one in the building except me so I just said ‘thank you very much’. It was an absolute gift and so Dee and I often say that they help me and they don’t help him."Of course, I asked Dee to tell me more and he described an incident which had taken place on the same day that Kim’s baking had been saved: “I was getting brewed iced tea started. Moved an urn over, started another one. Went off. Came back in, and both of the spouts were open and it was just pouring on the floor. And I’m like ‘well it’s nice that they’re helping you but they’re making my life hard. Golly'. But after things like that, you’re just like ‘well we’re here with other things going on.’” Kendall's Co-Owners - Dee Downer and Kim Lock(Rachel Hopkin / KGOU)Dee and Kim are by no means the only ones to have experienced odd goings-on at the restaurant. I learned more when I spoke with Peyton Allen and Michelle Goad.Peyton worked at Kendall’s for around five years: “There’s a couple of times whenever I was closing that I would be sweeping. Back then we would have silverware already set in our little packages; I would set all of those out after I was done sweeping, and there was one time when I was going to dump my dirty pan and I came back and there were about three or four tables where the silverware had completely flown off the table. There would be a lot of times when I would hear my name being called. They would also like dump the pepper. Just goofy things. The only one that I’ve experienced in front of you would be like when they tug your hair or the back of your shirt. That’s why I think one of them has to be a kiddo because they’re trying to get your attention, you know, but they’re short so that’s where they would tug.” Peyton Allen(Kendall's Restaurant)Meanwhile, Michelle was a childhood friend of one of Kim’s daughters and they often used to play together in the aforementioned kids’ room: “I saw a man. I kept hearing him over and over just kind of counting, quietly. And there was a lady that I saw walking through towards the kitchen area and she was dressed all in black and she didn’t look like a regular person. In a way she was almost see-through. But she was just walking through the kitchen area. And I knew she wasn’t supposed to be there. I had mentioned it and everyone ignored it.”It wasn’t until many years later that Michelle came to understand that the old man and the woman in black she saw as a child were ghosts. That she did so was down to the work of Oklahoma Paranormal Research and Investigations (OKPRI). Christy Clark Powell is its founder and director. She told me that her team have investigated hundreds of places, in many of which, they find no paranormal activity at all. OKPRI’s historian, Kathryn Wickham, concurred: “We try to disprove first. We have devices that measure if there are electrical problems in the building. We came in with our equipment and an open mind and just spent time in each of the rooms, recorded some audio, and documented our personal experiences.”At Kendall’s, they were definitely able to detect activity that interested them. Christy told me "Our audio recorders were actually able to pick several EVPs which stands for Electronic Voice Phenomena or voices of the dead. We had a couple of our members who were touched physically, and just kind of that creepy feeling of being watched when no one else was around. So we do feel that there is something going on at Kendall’s that cannot be explained by logical explanation.”Christy is a medium and told me that she also encountered some distinct figures which recalled those already described here by Michelle Goad and Peyton Allen: “One of them was the banker. He was in a pinstripe suit and had this little Derby hat. His name was Theodore. And he was asking me about this bank. ‘Where’s the bank?’ And I told him I didn’t know and then he disappeared. I do believe with him that he was the owner of the bank across the street. There is a little girl that is seen there. She followed us around a lot and didn’t say a whole lot about herself. Wanted to play. We would catch her giggling. And there was a woman. She had told me her name was Margaret. She was dressed all in black, and she was very pale, dark eyed. Sometimes when I see spirits, I’ll also see little visions of their life and there was some sort of rejection that happened and I seen her very upset and I seen her weeping. Afterwards I seen her collect oleander leaves and put them together in her food and consumed that which led to her death.” Oklahoma Paranormal and Research Investigations( Oklahoma Paranormal and Research Investigations)For my own part, I don’t consider myself a skeptic or a believer. I simply don’t think much about the paranormal. But I had definitely become intrigued by this stage. Why, I asked Christy, did she think spirits would stick around? She responded “I do believe everyone is given the chance to cross over. There are some who choose not to and those are the ones that we call earth-bound spirits. Maybe they were religious and they’ve been taught about a fiery hell all their lives so they’re scared. Or maybe it’s because they still have loved ones here who are mourning them and they feel like they’re needed. Or maybe they died tragically and they’re confused. They still feel like they are here physically in this form. There’s just a variety of reasons why they’re here.”This is a subject that Kim Lock has also thought about: “I’ve prayed and we’ve had ceremonies that if there is release for them to leave. I assume that they like it. I assume that they’re attached to this building. I don't know. Who knows? I may stay whenever I go. I believe personally and in this restaurant that we honour and respect life from past and present. I don't know about you but I’ve lost a lot of people that I loved, and I don't know that they’re walking around here although they may be, but I do know that there is connection to whatever happens after this, and that is comforting. That is beyond comforting. I’m going to respect them and be grateful that I get to share their space."How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Rachel Hopkin. The editor is Logan Layden and David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

What ghostly goings-on take place at Kendall's Restaurant?

Elmer McCurdy(Western History Collections, University of Oklahoma Libraries)One windy morning, I took a stroll through Summit View Cemetery in Guthrie.As I entered a section of the cemetery called Boot Hill, I noticed the graves of several outlaws like Bill Doolin, Bert Casey and Richard “Little Dick” West.These men have gone down in Oklahoma history as accomplished outlaws, but KGOU’s General Manager Dick Pryor said not every outlaw that passed through the state is known for this reason.“Some became famous because they were really good at what they did,” Pryor said. “Others became famous because they were not.”Pryor wonders who is the worst outlaw that became famous in Oklahoma?Many consider that outlaw to be Elmer McCurdy.Even though he is buried among infamous outlaws on Boot Hill, most people do not remember McCurdy’s failed robbery attempts. Instead, he is remembered for an unconventional reason: for what happened to his body after he died.McCurdy’s ‘Misadventures’McCurdy, who was from Maine, was among millions of people on the move, looking for work in America during the economic crisis around the turn of the 19th [into the 20th] century.“He was always this drifter, always an outsider, and even right up to the end,” said Mark Svenvold, the author of “Elmer McCurdy: The Misadventures In Life and Afterlife of an American Outlaw.”McCurdy joined the U.S. Army, where he developed at least a basic understanding of how to use explosives. Svenvold said he used this training to try to rob banks. Emphasis on try.“He was a nitroglycerin guy… but sort of comically inept actually at doing the job,” Svenvold said. “There was a bank. They blew up the safe, and the heat of the explosion fuzed the coins to the lining in the inner walls of the safe.”McCurdy then ended up in Oklahoma, where he attempted to rob a train in 1911.“The Osage Indians were incredibly wealthy because of oil revenues and because of a number of other things,” said Svenvold. “What happened is every fiscal quarter, a train would come into Pawhuska loaded with cash. It was distributed to the Osages. And so payment days, it attracted all sorts of people looking for some easy money.”Except McCurdy accidentally robbed the wrong train. Rather than leaving with $400,000, he ended up with $45 and whiskey.This led to McCurdy being killed in his early 30s during a shoot out with a sheriff's posse.“The Thousand-Year-Old Man” A funeral home in Pawhuska took possession of McCurdy’s body, awaiting word from the next of kin. In the meantime, the funeral home owner embalmed his body as a means of preservation, according to Svenvold.“It was a kind of thing that was done to outlaws to display them,” Svenvold said. “The Johnson Funeral Home would charge people if they wanted to come and take a look at the famous outlaw, now mummified.”(Western History Collections, University of Oklahoma Libraries)Visitors paid five cents, which was placed in McCurdy’s mouth.But McCurdy’s time as a drifter was not over yet, even in death. In 1916, a pair of men showed up to the funeral home claiming to be McCurdy’s brothers, but they were actually carnival promoters.“And that's when McCurdy joins the great early 20th century carnival circuit,” Svenvold said. “A mummy was a good thing to have in the carnival sideshow. You could make up any kind of story you wanted to and attach it to the body. So he was not a very good outlaw, but he became a great outlaw.”For decades, McCurdy traveled across the country with traveling circuses and shows. He was billed as “The Bandit Who Wouldn't Give Up,” “The Famous Oklahoma Outlaw” and “The Thousand-Year-Old Man.”McCurdy’s body changed hands in the 1960s to the Hollywood Wax Museum and eventually to an amusement park in Long Beach, California, becoming a fixture in a funhouse.Crew members of the television show “The Six Million Dollar Man” were at the amusement park to shoot an episode titled “Carnival of Spies.”The show is about an injured astronaut who is rebuilt to be the world’s first bionic man and works as an intelligence agent.While shooting the episode, a crew member moved what appeared to be a hanging dummy in the funhouse that was spray painted glow-in-the-dark orange. But its arm proceeded to fall off, revealing human bone.The body was taken to the Los Angeles Coroner’s Office.“The L.A. coroner was calling for help, saying, ‘If anyone knows who this person is or had any idea, you know, we're all ears. We'd like to know,’” Svenvold said. “And a group of history buffs from Guthrie had a notion, and they did some research. And indeed, they pretty much helped identify the person as Elmer McCurdy.”McCurdy’s Final Show The last stop on my walk through Boot Hill at Summit View Cemetery in Guthrie was McCurdy’s grave. It stood out, covered in coins, a cowboy boot and an empty bottle of Jim Beam.McCurdy was buried here in 1977, over half a century after his death. Several feet of concrete was poured over his casket to ensure McCurdy had taken part in his final show. Elmer McCurdy's grave at Summit View Cemetery in Guthrie.Svenvold said McCurdy’s posthumous fame is a good metaphor for society during that time."His bizarre success after he was shot and killed after a failed train robbery, his strange afterlife and successful afterlife as a dead person seemed to me to foreshadow more or less where the country was headed for the remainder of the 20th century,” Svenvold said. “A country sort of governed by ad men and the use to which his body was really to sort of anticipate the advertising age."How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

Elmer McCurdy(Western History Collections, University of Oklahoma Libraries)One windy morning, I took a stroll through Summit View Cemetery in Guthrie.As I entered a section of the cemetery called Boot Hill, I noticed the graves of several outlaws like Bill Doolin, Bert Casey and Richard “Little Dick” West.These men have gone down in Oklahoma history as accomplished outlaws, but KGOU’s General Manager Dick Pryor said not every outlaw that passed through the state is known for this reason.“Some became famous because they were really good at what they did,” Pryor said. “Others became famous because they were not.”Pryor wonders who is the worst outlaw that became famous in Oklahoma?Many consider that outlaw to be Elmer McCurdy.Even though he is buried among infamous outlaws on Boot Hill, most people do not remember McCurdy’s failed robbery attempts. Instead, he is remembered for an unconventional reason: for what happened to his body after he died.McCurdy’s ‘Misadventures’McCurdy, who was from Maine, was among millions of people on the move, looking for work in America during the economic crisis around the turn of the 19th [into the 20th] century.“He was always this drifter, always an outsider, and even right up to the end,” said Mark Svenvold, the author of “Elmer McCurdy: The Misadventures In Life and Afterlife of an American Outlaw.”McCurdy joined the U.S. Army, where he developed at least a basic understanding of how to use explosives. Svenvold said he used this training to try to rob banks. Emphasis on try.“He was a nitroglycerin guy… but sort of comically inept actually at doing the job,” Svenvold said. “There was a bank. They blew up the safe, and the heat of the explosion fuzed the coins to the lining in the inner walls of the safe.”McCurdy then ended up in Oklahoma, where he attempted to rob a train in 1911.“The Osage Indians were incredibly wealthy because of oil revenues and because of a number of other things,” said Svenvold. “What happened is every fiscal quarter, a train would come into Pawhuska loaded with cash. It was distributed to the Osages. And so payment days, it attracted all sorts of people looking for some easy money.”Except McCurdy accidentally robbed the wrong train. Rather than leaving with $400,000, he ended up with $45 and whiskey.This led to McCurdy being killed in his early 30s during a shoot out with a sheriff's posse.“The Thousand-Year-Old Man” A funeral home in Pawhuska took possession of McCurdy’s body, awaiting word from the next of kin. In the meantime, the funeral home owner embalmed his body as a means of preservation, according to Svenvold.“It was a kind of thing that was done to outlaws to display them,” Svenvold said. “The Johnson Funeral Home would charge people if they wanted to come and take a look at the famous outlaw, now mummified.” (Western History Collections, University of Oklahoma Libraries)Visitors paid five cents, which was placed in McCurdy’s mouth.But McCurdy’s time as a drifter was not over yet, even in death. In 1916, a pair of men showed up to the funeral home claiming to be McCurdy’s brothers, but they were actually carnival promoters.“And that's when McCurdy joins the great early 20th century carnival circuit,” Svenvold said. “A mummy was a good thing to have in the carnival sideshow. You could make up any kind of story you wanted to and attach it to the body. So he was not a very good outlaw, but he became a great outlaw.”For decades, McCurdy traveled across the country with traveling circuses and shows. He was billed as “The Bandit Who Wouldn't Give Up,” “The Famous Oklahoma Outlaw” and “The Thousand-Year-Old Man.”McCurdy’s body changed hands in the 1960s to the Hollywood Wax Museum and eventually to an amusement park in Long Beach, California, becoming a fixture in a funhouse.Crew members of the television show “The Six Million Dollar Man” were at the amusement park to shoot an episode titled “Carnival of Spies.”The show is about an injured astronaut who is rebuilt to be the world’s first bionic man and works as an intelligence agent.While shooting the episode, a crew member moved what appeared to be a hanging dummy in the funhouse that was spray painted glow-in-the-dark orange. But its arm proceeded to fall off, revealing human bone.The body was taken to the Los Angeles Coroner’s Office.“The L.A. coroner was calling for help, saying, ‘If anyone knows who this person is or had any idea, you know, we're all ears. We'd like to know,’” Svenvold said. “And a group of history buffs from Guthrie had a notion, and they did some research. And indeed, they pretty much helped identify the person as Elmer McCurdy.”McCurdy’s Final Show The last stop on my walk through Boot Hill at Summit View Cemetery in Guthrie was McCurdy’s grave. It stood out, covered in coins, a cowboy boot and an empty bottle of Jim Beam.McCurdy was buried here in 1977, over half a century after his death. Several feet of concrete was poured over his casket to ensure McCurdy had taken part in his final show. Elmer McCurdy's grave at Summit View Cemetery in Guthrie.Svenvold said McCurdy’s posthumous fame is a good metaphor for society during that time."His bizarre success after he was shot and killed after a failed train robbery, his strange afterlife and successful afterlife as a dead person seemed to me to foreshadow more or less where the country was headed for the remainder of the 20th century,” Svenvold said. “A country sort of governed by ad men and the use to which his body was really to sort of anticipate the advertising age."How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: Who is the worst outlaw that became famous in Oklahoma?

While driving through Caddo County in west-central Oklahoma, I spotted a tall rock formation in the distance called the Ghost Mound. It was impossible to miss among the trees as vultures circled its rounded top.At the base stood farmer Deon Yearwood. The mound has been in his family since the 1930s, when his father purchased the property.Yearwood proceeded to lead me up the steep mound. He made the hike look effortless, which comes after decades of practice.“When I was a kid, I would climb that mound two or three times a day,” Yearwood said. “I knew where every crack and rock was. You got to make your own entertainment when you are this far from town.”Lovecraft country The Ghost Mound also played a part in KGOU listener Colton House’s childhood.“I grew up on a farm just to the south of there so you could see it from my front door window, so it was always there growing up,” House said.He thought of The Ghost Mound again while reading a novella called “The Mound” that H.P. Lovecraft, one of the most influential writers of the 20th century, wrote under a different author’s name.The novella takes place in Binger, Oklahoma, which is about 20 miles southeast of The Ghost Mound. It is about an ethnologist who visits a haunted mound and ends up finding a portal to a subterranean civilization.House wonders if the Lovecraft novella was based on the Ghost Mound.“I feel like there is a story there with trying to figure out what this old ghost story was and maybe the history of it,” House said.Ghosts and ghostwritingIn his lifetime, Lovecraft was not a successful writer. So he made a living as a writing coach,One of his clients was Zealia Bishop. Sean Branney, co-founder of the H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society, says Bishop had hopes of writing about her own life experiences.“...which were largely about being a frustrated single mom and domestic kinds of challenges with a sprinkling of romance in there,” Branney said.But this was far from Lovecraft’s brand of cosmic horror. A portrait of H.P. Lovecraft taken by Lucius B. Truesdell in June of 1934.(Donovan K. Loucks)Then, while Bishop was visiting her sister’s ranch in Oklahoma, she heard spooky folklore.Branney said one about a snake-god taking vengeance on anyone who harms serpents inspired Bishop.“She thought, ‘Oh, this is a story I could write, and it is something that Lovecraft might like,’” Branney said. “And so she took the basic gist of the story and sent it on to Lovecraft. And so he basically was hired as a ghostwriter to go in and take her idea and flesh it out and make it a better story.”The story, titled “The Curse of Yig,” was published in a pulp magazine in 1929 under Bishop’s name, with Lovecraft receiving a small fee.But this was not the last time Bishop and Lovecraft would collaborate.Her time in Oklahoma also inspired another story titled “The Mound,” set in Binger. Lovecraft wrote the 30,000 word novella based on a brief synopsis from Bishop that read, “There is an Indian mound near here, which is haunted by a headless ghost. Sometimes it is a woman.”“I think the mound is the most significant work that he did under somebody else's name,” Branney said. “It is a long story. It is a complex story. It is an interesting story. It has got a lot of his own kind of theories about politics and sociology ... kind of woven into this underground world and culture. It really is a stand out among all the other works that he did, again, as revisions or collaborations.”What Oklahoma mound inspired an H.P. Lovecraft story? In the story, the location is described as being “about a third of a mile west of the village.”Bishop never indicates in her memoir which real-life mound, if any, the story is based on.But it is accepted among most Lovecraft circles that the novella is likely modeled after the Ghost Mound.As Deon Yearwood and I made it farther up the Ghost Mound, he pointed out a small cave, which is tied to what some think could be an Indigenous folk tale that the Mound supposedly got its name from. Deon Yearwood poses on the Ghost Mound in Caddo County in Oklahoma.“Two brothers were gathering ponies for the Tribe, and they stopped close by here for the night,” Yearwood. “And one of the brothers woke up during the night and the ponies were gone.”The brother left to look for the ponies.“During this time, the other brother woke up and saw that he was gone along with the pony,” Yearwood said. “So he started looking as well and could not find them.”So when he returned to the campsite, he looked up toward the mound and saw a barn owl in the small cave with the reflection of the moon on its belly.“It took a ghostly like appearance,” Yearwood said.This story also appeared in a 1965 edition of The Oklahoman.Once we made it near the top, I looked out on the open fields, dotted with cattle, farming equipment and crops.But what looked like a footprint on the rocks caught my eye.Yearwood said this is related to what some think could be a second Indigenous folk tale related to a woman falling or jumping off the mound.I asked leaders and officials from the Caddo Nation in Binger if they had ever heard of any Indigenous folk tales related to the Ghost Mound. While aware of some stories, they say the tales were most likely made up by farmers in the area.Some Lovecraft fans believe another possible inspiration for the story’s location is Dead Woman’s Mound, which is about 20 miles northwest of Binger and also has what some think could be Indigenous folk tale related to it.Branney says Lovecraft’s depiction of Indigenous peoples in “The Mound” is stereotypical, a recurring theme within Lovecraft’s work related to minority communities.“He does not go to the trouble of trying to portray them with any kind of humanity or personality or any sort of nuance or understanding,” Branney said. “I think by any modern standards, it is wildly insensitive.”When “The Mound” was first submitted to a pulp magazine, it was rejected because it was too long. An abridged version was later published in 1940 after Lovecraft’s death, but the full novella was not published until 1989.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

While driving through Caddo County in west-central Oklahoma, I spotted a tall rock formation in the distance called the Ghost Mound. It was impossible to miss among the trees as vultures circled its rounded top.At the base stood farmer Deon Yearwood. The mound has been in his family since the 1930s, when his father purchased the property.Yearwood proceeded to lead me up the steep mound. He made the hike look effortless, which comes after decades of practice.“When I was a kid, I would climb that mound two or three times a day,” Yearwood said. “I knew where every crack and rock was. You got to make your own entertainment when you are this far from town.”Lovecraft country The Ghost Mound also played a part in KGOU listener Colton House’s childhood.“I grew up on a farm just to the south of there so you could see it from my front door window, so it was always there growing up,” House said.He thought of The Ghost Mound again while reading a novella called “The Mound” that H.P. Lovecraft, one of the most influential writers of the 20th century, wrote under a different author’s name.The novella takes place in Binger, Oklahoma, which is about 20 miles southeast of The Ghost Mound. It is about an ethnologist who visits a haunted mound and ends up finding a portal to a subterranean civilization.House wonders if the Lovecraft novella was based on the Ghost Mound.“I feel like there is a story there with trying to figure out what this old ghost story was and maybe the history of it,” House said.Ghosts and ghostwritingIn his lifetime, Lovecraft was not a successful writer. So he made a living as a writing coach,One of his clients was Zealia Bishop. Sean Branney, co-founder of the H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society, says Bishop had hopes of writing about her own life experiences.“...which were largely about being a frustrated single mom and domestic kinds of challenges with a sprinkling of romance in there,” Branney said.But this was far from Lovecraft’s brand of cosmic horror. A portrait of H.P. Lovecraft taken by Lucius B. Truesdell in June of 1934.(Donovan K. Loucks)Then, while Bishop was visiting her sister’s ranch in Oklahoma, she heard spooky folklore.Branney said one about a snake-god taking vengeance on anyone who harms serpents inspired Bishop.“She thought, ‘Oh, this is a story I could write, and it is something that Lovecraft might like,’” Branney said. “And so she took the basic gist of the story and sent it on to Lovecraft. And so he basically was hired as a ghostwriter to go in and take her idea and flesh it out and make it a better story.”The story, titled “The Curse of Yig,” was published in a pulp magazine in 1929 under Bishop’s name, with Lovecraft receiving a small fee.But this was not the last time Bishop and Lovecraft would collaborate.Her time in Oklahoma also inspired another story titled “The Mound,” set in Binger. Lovecraft wrote the 30,000 word novella based on a brief synopsis from Bishop that read, “There is an Indian mound near here, which is haunted by a headless ghost. Sometimes it is a woman.”“I think the mound is the most significant work that he did under somebody else's name,” Branney said. “It is a long story. It is a complex story. It is an interesting story. It has got a lot of his own kind of theories about politics and sociology ... kind of woven into this underground world and culture. It really is a stand out among all the other works that he did, again, as revisions or collaborations.”What Oklahoma mound inspired an H.P. Lovecraft story? In the story, the location is described as being “about a third of a mile west of the village.”Bishop never indicates in her memoir which real-life mound, if any, the story is based on.But it is accepted among most Lovecraft circles that the novella is likely modeled after the Ghost Mound.As Deon Yearwood and I made it farther up the Ghost Mound, he pointed out a small cave, which is tied to what some think could be an Indigenous folk tale that the Mound supposedly got its name from. Deon Yearwood poses on the Ghost Mound in Caddo County in Oklahoma.“Two brothers were gathering ponies for the Tribe, and they stopped close by here for the night,” Yearwood. “And one of the brothers woke up during the night and the ponies were gone.”The brother left to look for the ponies.“During this time, the other brother woke up and saw that he was gone along with the pony,” Yearwood said. “So he started looking as well and could not find them.”So when he returned to the campsite, he looked up toward the mound and saw a barn owl in the small cave with the reflection of the moon on its belly.“It took a ghostly like appearance,” Yearwood said.This story also appeared in a 1965 edition of The Oklahoman.Once we made it near the top, I looked out on the open fields, dotted with cattle, farming equipment and crops.But what looked like a footprint on the rocks caught my eye.Yearwood said this is related to what some think could be a second Indigenous folk tale related to a woman falling or jumping off the mound.I asked leaders and officials from the Caddo Nation in Binger if they had ever heard of any Indigenous folk tales related to the Ghost Mound. While aware of some stories, they say the tales were most likely made up by farmers in the area.Some Lovecraft fans believe another possible inspiration for the story’s location is Dead Woman’s Mound, which is about 20 miles northwest of Binger and also has what some think could be Indigenous folk tale related to it.Branney says Lovecraft’s depiction of Indigenous peoples in “The Mound” is stereotypical, a recurring theme within Lovecraft’s work related to minority communities.“He does not go to the trouble of trying to portray them with any kind of humanity or personality or any sort of nuance or understanding,” Branney said. “I think by any modern standards, it is wildly insensitive.”When “The Mound” was first submitted to a pulp magazine, it was rejected because it was too long. An abridged version was later published in 1940 after Lovecraft’s death, but the full novella was not published until 1989.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: What Oklahoma mound inspired an H.P. Lovecraft story?

Jeff Davis, a member of the Gold Prospectors of Oklahoma City, uses a highbanker to search for gold on the Kiamichi River in southeastern Oklahoma.On the Kiamichi River in southeastern Oklahoma, Mike Pung searched for something glistening.“Water will take the gold with it,” Pung, president of the Gold Prospectors of Oklahoma City, said. “So we look for the concentrated areas of water, which is where you are going to find the concentrated areas of gold. ”Other members spread out across the river, using a variety of equipment in hopes of finding gold. This includes a highbanker, a long, sloped piece of equipment that gravel is shoveled into and rinsed through with water.Is gold buried in Oklahoma?The person who inspired me to learn more about gold and its history in Oklahoma is KGOU listener Alex McSpadden.He became intrigued by the idea of striking it rich after vacationing in Colorado, a state known for its gold. So he brought that curiosity back to his home state of Oklahoma.“I was surprised to find out that there is a lot of gold that was brought here by other people,” McSpadden said. “And it is the stories behind that gold that makes it so much different than what you would just find naturally in the Earth. It is something that is almost woven into the fabric of the history of the state.”McSpadden was also left wondering what recently has been found, and what would lead us to believe there is still more out there?Gold feverI brought this question to Pung, who has been gold prospecting for over a decade.“I got my first flash in the pan, seen a piece of gold and I was hooked,” Pung said. “Gold fever set in, and I have not let go since.”His love of gold has led Pung across the state, finding gold in the Cimarron River, the Red River and the Arkansas River. What Pung has discovered is typically smaller than granulated sugar since Oklahoma does not produce much natural gold.But Cash Best, a member of the Gold Prospectors of Oklahoma City, said it is not about the payoff.“It is just really an expensive hobby for many of us,” Best said. “For even the guys that are going out and picking up three or four ounces in a year, that is not professional.”X marks the spotThis hunt for gold in Oklahoma spans back centuries. During the 16th century, Spanish explorer Francisco Vázquez de Coronado crossed part of Oklahoma in search of the Seven Cities of Gold. And by the 17th century, another Spanish explorer ended up in the Wichita Mountains.“The Spanish - they had a never ending quest for gold,” Jamie Dodson, historian and treasure hunter, said. “Any area they went through, they were searching for gold. I mean, they not only came through Oklahoma, they made their way up to Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri.”For these Spanish explorers, Oklahoma also served as a hiding place for gold.“They would come out of Colorado, New Mexico with the gold that they were carrying down to the Gulf to be transported back to Spain,” Dodson said. “But they would winter here in Oklahoma. So a lot of times they would hide their gold here and for whatever reason not be able to make it on down to the Gulf.”Stashing gold in the state did not stop with the Spanish; instead, it continued with outlaws who would come through Oklahoma, such as the notorious Jesse James. In 1876, James supposedly hid $2 million worth of gold in the Wichita Mountains that was stolen from Mexicans. Jesse James(Steve Wilson /  Oklahoma Treasures and Treasure Tales)“They were traveling during the winter, and there was a bad blizzard,” Dodson said. “So they stopped, threw the gold into a ravine and kicked some dirt over top of it. Jesse and the other members of the gang basically carved into a brass bucket a contract. The contract itself was a kind of treasure map to explain how to find some of the money.”This gold and similar hidden treasure is highly sought after. But Dodson said it is difficult to know what has been discovered.“It has been rumored things have been found over the years,” Dodson said. “You are not going to get anyone to really say, ‘Hey, look at me. I found it.’ Because that is just not how treasure hunting goes. It is a very secretive bunch. They do not publish or publicize their findings very often.”The “boom is now on” Aside from hidden treasure, the Wichita Mountains stayed on people’s radar who were eager to find natural gold. Even though Oklahoma did not experience a gold rush the size of some western states, more than 2,500 shafts were sunk in the Wichita Mountains from 1901 to 1907.But these miners were driven by speculation since the U.S. government found there was not paying quantities of gold in the Wichita Mountains. A Lawton News-Republican headline from 1903 declares the "Boom is now on."(Steve Wilson /  Oklahoma Treasures and Treasure Tales)This did not stop scammers from making it appear the area was filled with gold.Along with outlaws, Dodson said the short lived gold rush attracted scammers who would create fake gold mines by firing shotgun shells full of gold into rocks and salting mines.“Basically the only people that made money during the mining period were people selling shares of the mining stock and the ones selling supplies to the miners,” Dodson said. “Miners themselves, I cannot recall any that actually made any money. Most of them lost small fortunes looking here.”Once the gold rush settled down, the government pushed remaining prospectors out of the Wichita Mountains. Today, gold prospecting and treasure hunting are prohibited in the area.Starts with the pan and ends with the panBack on the Kiamichi River, members of the Gold Prospectors of Oklahoma City float a large dredge across the river, pulling gravel from the bottom like a vacuum cleaner. Mike Pung, president of the Gold Prospectors of Oklahoma City, uses a dredge to search for gold on the Kiamichi River in southeastern Oklahoma. But Pung returned to the basics of gold prospecting.“Well, they say all mining starts with the pan and ends with the pan,” Pung said.As Pung shook the gravel, he made a discovery.“One little tiny piece of gold right there. Yay!,” Pung said. “How many people in the world have actually seen this gold? Just these people here who saw it first. How much responsibility and honor is that in finding a piece of gold?”After parting ways with the gold prospectors, I called McSpadden to discuss my experience.“I think it is great to think that because of how wide and varied the routes were and how many different civilizations actually came through this state throughout history, that even though there are certain spots where it is rumored to be buried, there could still be gold anywhere based on who happened to be living and dying in the past in that particular spot,” McSpadden said. “I just think it is great to think that you never know where you are going to find it. It could turn up anywhere in this state because we are not just looking for rocks, we are looking for history. And that could be right under us, and we would never know it.”How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

Jeff Davis, a member of the Gold Prospectors of Oklahoma City, uses a highbanker to search for gold on the Kiamichi River in southeastern Oklahoma.On the Kiamichi River in southeastern Oklahoma, Mike Pung searched for something glistening.“Water will take the gold with it,” Pung, president of the Gold Prospectors of Oklahoma City, said. “So we look for the concentrated areas of water, which is where you are going to find the concentrated areas of gold. ”Other members spread out across the river, using a variety of equipment in hopes of finding gold. This includes a highbanker, a long, sloped piece of equipment that gravel is shoveled into and rinsed through with water.Is gold buried in Oklahoma?The person who inspired me to learn more about gold and its history in Oklahoma is KGOU listener Alex McSpadden.He became intrigued by the idea of striking it rich after vacationing in Colorado, a state known for its gold. So he brought that curiosity back to his home state of Oklahoma.“I was surprised to find out that there is a lot of gold that was brought here by other people,” McSpadden said. “And it is the stories behind that gold that makes it so much different than what you would just find naturally in the Earth. It is something that is almost woven into the fabric of the history of the state.”McSpadden was also left wondering what recently has been found, and what would lead us to believe there is still more out there?Gold feverI brought this question to Pung, who has been gold prospecting for over a decade.“I got my first flash in the pan, seen a piece of gold and I was hooked,” Pung said. “Gold fever set in, and I have not let go since.”His love of gold has led Pung across the state, finding gold in the Cimarron River, the Red River and the Arkansas River. What Pung has discovered is typically smaller than granulated sugar since Oklahoma does not produce much natural gold.But Cash Best, a member of the Gold Prospectors of Oklahoma City, said it is not about the payoff.“It is just really an expensive hobby for many of us,” Best said. “For even the guys that are going out and picking up three or four ounces in a year, that is not professional.”X marks the spotThis hunt for gold in Oklahoma spans back centuries. During the 16th century, Spanish explorer Francisco Vázquez de Coronado crossed part of Oklahoma in search of the Seven Cities of Gold. And by the 17th century, another Spanish explorer ended up in the Wichita Mountains.“The Spanish - they had a never ending quest for gold,” Jamie Dodson, historian and treasure hunter, said. “Any area they went through, they were searching for gold. I mean, they not only came through Oklahoma, they made their way up to Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri.”For these Spanish explorers, Oklahoma also served as a hiding place for gold.“They would come out of Colorado, New Mexico with the gold that they were carrying down to the Gulf to be transported back to Spain,” Dodson said. “But they would winter here in Oklahoma. So a lot of times they would hide their gold here and for whatever reason not be able to make it on down to the Gulf.”Stashing gold in the state did not stop with the Spanish; instead, it continued with outlaws who would come through Oklahoma, such as the notorious Jesse James. In 1876, James supposedly hid $2 million worth of gold in the Wichita Mountains that was stolen from Mexicans. Jesse James(Steve Wilson / Oklahoma Treasures and Treasure Tales)“They were traveling during the winter, and there was a bad blizzard,” Dodson said. “So they stopped, threw the gold into a ravine and kicked some dirt over top of it. Jesse and the other members of the gang basically carved into a brass bucket a contract. The contract itself was a kind of treasure map to explain how to find some of the money.”This gold and similar hidden treasure is highly sought after. But Dodson said it is difficult to know what has been discovered.“It has been rumored things have been found over the years,” Dodson said. “You are not going to get anyone to really say, ‘Hey, look at me. I found it.’ Because that is just not how treasure hunting goes. It is a very secretive bunch. They do not publish or publicize their findings very often.”The “boom is now on” Aside from hidden treasure, the Wichita Mountains stayed on people’s radar who were eager to find natural gold. Even though Oklahoma did not experience a gold rush the size of some western states, more than 2,500 shafts were sunk in the Wichita Mountains from 1901 to 1907.But these miners were driven by speculation since the U.S. government found there was not paying quantities of gold in the Wichita Mountains. A Lawton News-Republican headline from 1903 declares the "Boom is now on."(Steve Wilson / Oklahoma Treasures and Treasure Tales)This did not stop scammers from making it appear the area was filled with gold.Along with outlaws, Dodson said the short lived gold rush attracted scammers who would create fake gold mines by firing shotgun shells full of gold into rocks and salting mines.“Basically the only people that made money during the mining period were people selling shares of the mining stock and the ones selling supplies to the miners,” Dodson said. “Miners themselves, I cannot recall any that actually made any money. Most of them lost small fortunes looking here.”Once the gold rush settled down, the government pushed remaining prospectors out of the Wichita Mountains. Today, gold prospecting and treasure hunting are prohibited in the area.Starts with the pan and ends with the panBack on the Kiamichi River, members of the Gold Prospectors of Oklahoma City float a large dredge across the river, pulling gravel from the bottom like a vacuum cleaner. Mike Pung, president of the Gold Prospectors of Oklahoma City, uses a dredge to search for gold on the Kiamichi River in southeastern Oklahoma. But Pung returned to the basics of gold prospecting.“Well, they say all mining starts with the pan and ends with the pan,” Pung said.As Pung shook the gravel, he made a discovery.“One little tiny piece of gold right there. Yay!,” Pung said. “How many people in the world have actually seen this gold? Just these people here who saw it first. How much responsibility and honor is that in finding a piece of gold?”After parting ways with the gold prospectors, I called McSpadden to discuss my experience.“I think it is great to think that because of how wide and varied the routes were and how many different civilizations actually came through this state throughout history, that even though there are certain spots where it is rumored to be buried, there could still be gold anywhere based on who happened to be living and dying in the past in that particular spot,” McSpadden said. “I just think it is great to think that you never know where you are going to find it. It could turn up anywhere in this state because we are not just looking for rocks, we are looking for history. And that could be right under us, and we would never know it.”How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

 How Curious: Is gold buried in Oklahoma?

Joshua Crain, owner of Think Ink Tattoos in Norman, tattoos his fiancė Heather.Nestled in Campus Corner near the University of Oklahoma in Norman is Think Ink Tattoos.When I walked into the small studio, I was met with the sight of dozens of colorful, bright designs on the wall, similar to the one owner Joshua Crain was tattooing on his fiancé Heather.Crain has been tattooing for over 20 years, but he was around back when tattooing was not so widely accepted.Oklahoma banned tattooing in 1963 and was the last state in the nation to legalize the practice in 2006.Crain has always been curious about who banned tattooing in Oklahoma and why.When the circus comes to townCrain heard a rumor that tattooing became illegal because a state lawmaker’s daughter got a tattoo he did not approve of.“Someone potentially got tattooed by a traveling circus or a fair and could have been really young, just got something kind of silly,” Crain said.And apparently the state lawmaker was so angry that he drafted legislation to ban tattooing, which went on to be signed into law.Every tattooist in Oklahoma I mentioned this rumor to had heard a similar version. The rumor was even printed in The Oklahoman in the late '90s.True or not, the state’s history with tattooing goes back centuries before the ban in the 1960s.History of ink in Oklahoma In North America, the Tribes used tattoos to represent themes like belonging, accomplishments and beliefs.“You do see different styles from the Pawnee and Plains traditions to the southeast to the upper Great Lakes,” Eric Singleton, curator of ethnology at the National Cowboy &amp; Western Heritage Museum in Oklahoma City, said. “And so each of those regions just have different styles.”Eric Singleton, curator of ethnology at the National Cowboy &amp; Western Heritage Museum in Oklahoma City, discusses tattooing equipment featured in the exhibition Tattooing: Religion, Reality and Regret. But by the late 1800s, Singleton said tattooing essentially stopped in Indigenous cultures due to acculturation and the rise of missionaries.Even before it was illegal, tattooing had fallen out of favor in Oklahoma, according to Larry Johnson, special collections manager at the Metropolitan Library System.“If you think of the ‘50s, where proper and polite society was the thing at the time, certain things just simply were not done, and tattooing was one of those things,” Johnson said.Tattooists were located along “skid row” on Reno Avenue in Oklahoma City. Part of their clientele was military personnel from the naval base in Norman and what is now Tinker Air Force Base in OKC.An article featured in a 1943 edition of The Oklahoman.“It was considered primitive and low class,” Johnson said. “And tattoo parlors would be located in these places where respectable white middle class should not go.”Johnson said there were no specific laws in Oklahoma regarding tattooing, but there would occasionally be crack downs related to tattooing minors or women partially disrobing in public.Paving the way for legalizationWhen tattooing was banned in Oklahoma in 1963, it pushed residents to surrounding states, like Texas and Arkansas, to get tattoos or set up shop.But there were also tattooists like Brandon Mull, owner of Water Street Tattoo in Sapulpa, who continued to tattoo in the state, attracting business through word of mouth.“I had business cards back then that said my name and said body shop on it,” Mull said. “The people that knew what it was knew what the phone number was for. The people that did not would call me at 2:00 in the morning wanting their fender fixed because they got into an accident.”In his 26 years of tattooing, Mull was arrested twice for the practice in the early 2000s.“You had to be careful because the police would come and arrest you,” Mull said. “And they would go through your house and take everything that had anything to do with any form of art. And if you did not have your equipment, you could not make money if you did not have another job.”This led Mull to help form a coalition of tattooists who would hold fundraisers and set up voter registration booths.But Mull acknowledges that the main driving force behind legalizing tattooing in Oklahoma was former state Rep. Al Lindley, D-Oklahoma City. After nearly a decade of working to get a bill passed to legalize tattooing, Lindley said it was a relief when the legislation finally went into law.“Just like you go to a restaurant, you are sure that the food you eat there is safe,” Lindley said. “Even the gas we pump into our cars is regulated by the Corporation Commission. So there is a lot of facets in our lives that have regulations, but I am really glad to see that now people can get safe tattoos.”Why did Oklahoma ban tattooing? But to answer tattooist Joshua Crain’s question about why the practice was banned in Oklahoma, I brought the rumor he had heard up to Johnson, who said it is unknown who the state lawmaker or his daughter was, as well as where she got tattooed or what it depicted.But what is known is that Oklahoma followed a national trend in the early ‘60s to ban tattooing, in part due to concerns over spreading Hepatitis B through unclean needles. But Johnson said there was never any evidence that tattooing led to an outbreak.The government also began requiring licensing of most services that were tied to the human body, an idea that emerged from the Progressive Movement.And in addition to many people believing the Bible forbade tattooing, Johnson said the practice also went against white middle class values.“And that was terrifying to parents in those days that this could happen to their children and that they would be permanently marked, and they would never get a good job, and they would never marry a good person, on and on.” Johnson said.I paid Crain a visit at Think Ink Tattoos to get his thoughts on what I dug up.“So many of us have made a living off of this,” Crain said. “So you can imagine how many people could have potentially not moved away from Oklahoma to pursue this career in art. How many more jobs could have been created throughout all those years.”How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

Joshua Crain, owner of Think Ink Tattoos in Norman, tattoos his fiancė Heather.Nestled in Campus Corner near the University of Oklahoma in Norman is Think Ink Tattoos.When I walked into the small studio, I was met with the sight of dozens of colorful, bright designs on the wall, similar to the one owner Joshua Crain was tattooing on his fiancé Heather.Crain has been tattooing for over 20 years, but he was around back when tattooing was not so widely accepted.Oklahoma banned tattooing in 1963 and was the last state in the nation to legalize the practice in 2006.Crain has always been curious about who banned tattooing in Oklahoma and why.When the circus comes to townCrain heard a rumor that tattooing became illegal because a state lawmaker’s daughter got a tattoo he did not approve of.“Someone potentially got tattooed by a traveling circus or a fair and could have been really young, just got something kind of silly,” Crain said.And apparently the state lawmaker was so angry that he drafted legislation to ban tattooing, which went on to be signed into law.Every tattooist in Oklahoma I mentioned this rumor to had heard a similar version. The rumor was even printed in The Oklahoman in the late '90s.True or not, the state’s history with tattooing goes back centuries before the ban in the 1960s.History of ink in Oklahoma In North America, the Tribes used tattoos to represent themes like belonging, accomplishments and beliefs.“You do see different styles from the Pawnee and Plains traditions to the southeast to the upper Great Lakes,” Eric Singleton, curator of ethnology at the National Cowboy &amp; Western Heritage Museum in Oklahoma City, said. “And so each of those regions just have different styles.” Eric Singleton, curator of ethnology at the National Cowboy &amp; Western Heritage Museum in Oklahoma City, discusses tattooing equipment featured in the exhibition Tattooing: Religion, Reality and Regret. But by the late 1800s, Singleton said tattooing essentially stopped in Indigenous cultures due to acculturation and the rise of missionaries.Even before it was illegal, tattooing had fallen out of favor in Oklahoma, according to Larry Johnson, special collections manager at the Metropolitan Library System.“If you think of the ‘50s, where proper and polite society was the thing at the time, certain things just simply were not done, and tattooing was one of those things,” Johnson said.Tattooists were located along “skid row” on Reno Avenue in Oklahoma City. Part of their clientele was military personnel from the naval base in Norman and what is now Tinker Air Force Base in OKC. An article featured in a 1943 edition of The Oklahoman.“It was considered primitive and low class,” Johnson said. “And tattoo parlors would be located in these places where respectable white middle class should not go.”Johnson said there were no specific laws in Oklahoma regarding tattooing, but there would occasionally be crack downs related to tattooing minors or women partially disrobing in public.Paving the way for legalizationWhen tattooing was banned in Oklahoma in 1963, it pushed residents to surrounding states, like Texas and Arkansas, to get tattoos or set up shop.But there were also tattooists like Brandon Mull, owner of Water Street Tattoo in Sapulpa, who continued to tattoo in the state, attracting business through word of mouth.“I had business cards back then that said my name and said body shop on it,” Mull said. “The people that knew what it was knew what the phone number was for. The people that did not would call me at 2:00 in the morning wanting their fender fixed because they got into an accident.”In his 26 years of tattooing, Mull was arrested twice for the practice in the early 2000s.“You had to be careful because the police would come and arrest you,” Mull said. “And they would go through your house and take everything that had anything to do with any form of art. And if you did not have your equipment, you could not make money if you did not have another job.”This led Mull to help form a coalition of tattooists who would hold fundraisers and set up voter registration booths.But Mull acknowledges that the main driving force behind legalizing tattooing in Oklahoma was former state Rep. Al Lindley, D-Oklahoma City. After nearly a decade of working to get a bill passed to legalize tattooing, Lindley said it was a relief when the legislation finally went into law.“Just like you go to a restaurant, you are sure that the food you eat there is safe,” Lindley said. “Even the gas we pump into our cars is regulated by the Corporation Commission. So there is a lot of facets in our lives that have regulations, but I am really glad to see that now people can get safe tattoos.”Why did Oklahoma ban tattooing? But to answer tattooist Joshua Crain’s question about why the practice was banned in Oklahoma, I brought the rumor he had heard up to Johnson, who said it is unknown who the state lawmaker or his daughter was, as well as where she got tattooed or what it depicted.But what is known is that Oklahoma followed a national trend in the early ‘60s to ban tattooing, in part due to concerns over spreading Hepatitis B through unclean needles. But Johnson said there was never any evidence that tattooing led to an outbreak.The government also began requiring licensing of most services that were tied to the human body, an idea that emerged from the Progressive Movement.And in addition to many people believing the Bible forbade tattooing, Johnson said the practice also went against white middle class values.“And that was terrifying to parents in those days that this could happen to their children and that they would be permanently marked, and they would never get a good job, and they would never marry a good person, on and on.” Johnson said.I paid Crain a visit at Think Ink Tattoos to get his thoughts on what I dug up.“So many of us have made a living off of this,” Crain said. “So you can imagine how many people could have potentially not moved away from Oklahoma to pursue this career in art. How many more jobs could have been created throughout all those years.”How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: Why was Oklahoma the last state in the nation to legalize tattooing?

Belle Isle Lake(Metropolitan Library System of Oklahoma County)In northwest Oklahoma City lies Historic Brookhaven, a neighborhood between Western Avenue and Classen Boulevard. The neighborhood has a distinct look, featuring homes shaped like cinder blocks and a creek called Deep Fork.KGOU listener David Glover’s house backs up to the creek.“It is always flowing. There is always a little water moving,” Glover said. “You can see there is dozens of different species and sometimes we see fox, possums, raccoons. But the water comes down from the left and the right. It comes right together on those rocks.”The Wolf Man’s originThe creek used to feed Belle Isle, a lake built around the time of statehood that no longer exists. Most OKC residents associate Belle Isle with the shopping center, library, neighborhood and brewery of the same name.But Glover remembers Belle Isle Lake for a different reason: For allegedly reviving one of the most iconic horror actors of the 20th century.Lon Chaney, the horror movie man, is shown May 14, 1945.(AP Photo)“It looks like Lon Chaney Jr. - his parents were here on Belle Isle Lake, and supposedly he was born a number of months premature and came out not breathing,“ Glover said. “And they threw him in the cold water and it revived him. It seems like there is some different people that have different versions of it, but whether or not he was brought back to life with the frozen water, I do not know if that is true.”Lon Chaney Jr., whose father of the same name was also a famous actor, starred in movies in the 1940s like “The Ghost of Frankenstein," ”Son of Dracula” and “The Wolf Man.”Oklahoma City promises fortuneSo to figure out whether Chaney Jr.'s origin story was true, I first needed to know more about Belle Isle Lake and the man who started it.After Anton Classen graduated from the University of Michigan Law School in the late 1880s, Classen desired to build his fortune. Anton Classen, right, and unidentified man touring Belle Isle property.(Metropolitan Library System of Oklahoma County)“And Oklahoma City was a place that the Land Run offered that opportunity to build something from scratch,” Larry Johnson, special collections manager at the Metropolitan Library System, said.If that name sounds familiar, it is because Classen Boulevard in OKC and Norman is named after him.This ambition led to Classen starting the Oklahoma Railway Company.The railway opened a power plant in 1908 to run the trolley, traveling within Oklahoma City, and the interurban to surrounding cities, like Guthrie and Norman.The power plant was northeast of Belle Isle Lake, which was constructed to cool the plant. But since the power plant generated more electricity than needed, Johnson said the railway decided to follow a national trend.“All over the country, streetcar companies opened what are called trolley parks, which were amusement parks that used up the excess electricity they had,” Johnson said. “And so Belle Isle was selected. And so the lake was built there and the amusement park there.” Belle Isle Power Plant(Metropolitan Library System of Oklahoma County)An ad from the time that ran in The Oklahoman refers to Belle Isle Park as the “playground of the southwest.” The lake, which took up most of the 280-acre park, was a premier spot for swimming and boating since the power plant heated the water for much of the year while the amusement park featured a ferris wheel and a merry-go-round.But Belle Isle Park was built to serve what Classen described in a letter as his two main interests: real estate and electric railway.The trolley traveled from downtown Oklahoma City north up to Classen Boulevard. Belle Isle Park was located at what was considered at the time the northern edge of OKC.“I hate to make it about money, but that is really - if you think about it, he built it into open prairie,” Johnson said. “There was nothing there to carry people to. And then once he started selling the lots and building the houses, then the traffic followed after that.”Belle Isle Lake runs dryBut even with the increase of residents in the area, the trolley went bankrupt in the late-1920s, as cars increased in prominence, and Classen ran out of property to sell.In 1928, Belle Isle Park was sold to OG&amp;E, who built a power plant that was considered innovative for its time. But OG&amp;E ended up moving locations in the mid-1960s, making the abandoned power plant a popular destination for teenagers.Johnson knows from personal experience.“It would have been in the early '80s when I was a teenager,” Johnson said. “Some of us would kind of break into places like that and explore. But I have heard people would go up in the smokestacks and climb up all the way to the top. I was not that brave.”Where you could once find a family fishing, riding a canoe or supposedly submerging a dying baby who would become a movie star is now the location of a Walmart at Belle Isle Station shopping center.Did Belle Isle Lake revive Lon Chaney Jr.?An article that appeared in a 1982 edition of The Oklahoman corroborates the story Glover heard. According to the article, Chaney Jr. was born on a cold February night in 1906 in a cabin on Belle Isle Lake. The “bluish baby” appeared to be dead so his father plunged Chaney Jr. in the icy water, reviving him. Belle Isle Park(Metropolitan Library System of Oklahoma County)Chaney Jr.’s family did not respond to my requests for an interview, but a similar retelling of events appears on the official Chaney Entertainment website, adding that Chaney Jr.’s father created an incubator out of a shoebox for the baby.But Johnson said it is difficult to verify this story.“There really should not have been anybody living on the lake,” Johnson said. “If they did live out there, that was not in the city limits and so we would not really have a directory or any kind of records, and if they were leasing the house or renting it, we would not have the property records in their name.”And Chaney Jr. was born in February 1906. Even though a development was laid out that year, Belle Isle Lake was not filled and opened until 1907.While this evidence seems to disprove the story, Johnson said it is still fitting.“This guy was the Wolf Man and Dracula,” Johnson said. “He was all of these monsters. What better origin for a monster than to be risen from the dead right at the beginning.”I returned to Glover’s house to relay what I found.“My guess is there is probably some truth in it somewhere, but we will probably never know,” Glover said.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

Belle Isle Lake(Metropolitan Library System of Oklahoma County)In northwest Oklahoma City lies Historic Brookhaven, a neighborhood between Western Avenue and Classen Boulevard. The neighborhood has a distinct look, featuring homes shaped like cinder blocks and a creek called Deep Fork.KGOU listener David Glover’s house backs up to the creek.“It is always flowing. There is always a little water moving,” Glover said. “You can see there is dozens of different species and sometimes we see fox, possums, raccoons. But the water comes down from the left and the right. It comes right together on those rocks.”The Wolf Man’s originThe creek used to feed Belle Isle, a lake built around the time of statehood that no longer exists. Most OKC residents associate Belle Isle with the shopping center, library, neighborhood and brewery of the same name.But Glover remembers Belle Isle Lake for a different reason: For allegedly reviving one of the most iconic horror actors of the 20th century. Lon Chaney, the horror movie man, is shown May 14, 1945.(AP Photo)“It looks like Lon Chaney Jr. - his parents were here on Belle Isle Lake, and supposedly he was born a number of months premature and came out not breathing,“ Glover said. “And they threw him in the cold water and it revived him. It seems like there is some different people that have different versions of it, but whether or not he was brought back to life with the frozen water, I do not know if that is true.”Lon Chaney Jr., whose father of the same name was also a famous actor, starred in movies in the 1940s like “The Ghost of Frankenstein," ”Son of Dracula” and “The Wolf Man.”Oklahoma City promises fortuneSo to figure out whether Chaney Jr.'s origin story was true, I first needed to know more about Belle Isle Lake and the man who started it.After Anton Classen graduated from the University of Michigan Law School in the late 1880s, Classen desired to build his fortune. Anton Classen, right, and unidentified man touring Belle Isle property.(Metropolitan Library System of Oklahoma County)“And Oklahoma City was a place that the Land Run offered that opportunity to build something from scratch,” Larry Johnson, special collections manager at the Metropolitan Library System, said.If that name sounds familiar, it is because Classen Boulevard in OKC and Norman is named after him.This ambition led to Classen starting the Oklahoma Railway Company.The railway opened a power plant in 1908 to run the trolley, traveling within Oklahoma City, and the interurban to surrounding cities, like Guthrie and Norman.The power plant was northeast of Belle Isle Lake, which was constructed to cool the plant. But since the power plant generated more electricity than needed, Johnson said the railway decided to follow a national trend.“All over the country, streetcar companies opened what are called trolley parks, which were amusement parks that used up the excess electricity they had,” Johnson said. “And so Belle Isle was selected. And so the lake was built there and the amusement park there.” Belle Isle Power Plant(Metropolitan Library System of Oklahoma County)An ad from the time that ran in The Oklahoman refers to Belle Isle Park as the “playground of the southwest.” The lake, which took up most of the 280-acre park, was a premier spot for swimming and boating since the power plant heated the water for much of the year while the amusement park featured a ferris wheel and a merry-go-round.But Belle Isle Park was built to serve what Classen described in a letter as his two main interests: real estate and electric railway.The trolley traveled from downtown Oklahoma City north up to Classen Boulevard. Belle Isle Park was located at what was considered at the time the northern edge of OKC.“I hate to make it about money, but that is really - if you think about it, he built it into open prairie,” Johnson said. “There was nothing there to carry people to. And then once he started selling the lots and building the houses, then the traffic followed after that.”Belle Isle Lake runs dryBut even with the increase of residents in the area, the trolley went bankrupt in the late-1920s, as cars increased in prominence, and Classen ran out of property to sell.In 1928, Belle Isle Park was sold to OG&amp;E, who built a power plant that was considered innovative for its time. But OG&amp;E ended up moving locations in the mid-1960s, making the abandoned power plant a popular destination for teenagers.Johnson knows from personal experience.“It would have been in the early '80s when I was a teenager,” Johnson said. “Some of us would kind of break into places like that and explore. But I have heard people would go up in the smokestacks and climb up all the way to the top. I was not that brave.”Where you could once find a family fishing, riding a canoe or supposedly submerging a dying baby who would become a movie star is now the location of a Walmart at Belle Isle Station shopping center.Did Belle Isle Lake revive Lon Chaney Jr.?An article that appeared in a 1982 edition of The Oklahoman corroborates the story Glover heard. According to the article, Chaney Jr. was born on a cold February night in 1906 in a cabin on Belle Isle Lake. The “bluish baby” appeared to be dead so his father plunged Chaney Jr. in the icy water, reviving him. Belle Isle Park(Metropolitan Library System of Oklahoma County)Chaney Jr.’s family did not respond to my requests for an interview, but a similar retelling of events appears on the official Chaney Entertainment website, adding that Chaney Jr.’s father created an incubator out of a shoebox for the baby.But Johnson said it is difficult to verify this story.“There really should not have been anybody living on the lake,” Johnson said. “If they did live out there, that was not in the city limits and so we would not really have a directory or any kind of records, and if they were leasing the house or renting it, we would not have the property records in their name.”And Chaney Jr. was born in February 1906. Even though a development was laid out that year, Belle Isle Lake was not filled and opened until 1907.While this evidence seems to disprove the story, Johnson said it is still fitting.“This guy was the Wolf Man and Dracula,” Johnson said. “He was all of these monsters. What better origin for a monster than to be risen from the dead right at the beginning.”I returned to Glover’s house to relay what I found.“My guess is there is probably some truth in it somewhere, but we will probably never know,” Glover said.How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It is produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: Did an Oklahoma City lake revive a movie star?

One evening in July, I drove across the Oklahoma border with my father Les Howard to visit Fort Smith, Arkansas. It’s a few miles away from Pocola, a small town in eastern Oklahoma where my dad grew up and still lives with my mom.We were in Fort Smith to visit a statue of Bass Reeves, one of the first Black deputy U.S. marshals west of the Mississippi River. My dad learned about Reeves a few years ago when he saw the tall, bronze statue.Reeves is now considered among the most prolific law enforcement officers in American history. But in recent years, people have started to also associate Reeves with being the inspiration for the character The Lone Ranger.This is just one example of Reeves’ pop culture ties, being featured in upcoming movies like Netflix’s “The Harder They Fall,” which is a western produced by rapper Jay-Z, and acclaimed TV shows like HBO’s “Watchmen.”The Forgotten Lawman So to get to the bottom of whether Reeves was the real Lone Ranger, I traced the legend back to the main person responsible for popularizing it. In this case, that’s Art T. Burton.He first heard of Reeves as a child while at his grandparents’ home in Arcadia, Oklahoma. But Burton’s interest in Reeves was sparked again in the '80s when he started hearing second hand information about Reeves.“And then he told me that Bass could outride, outshoot, outrope, outfight out-blah, blah, blah, blah,” Burton said. “And my first inclination was these people are off their rocker. Because, you know, if this guy was that good, everybody would have known about him.”From that point forward, Burton was determined to learn everything he could about Reeves.“So I called up the U.S. Marshal's office in Washington, D.C. And I asked them, ‘Have y'all ever heard of Bass Reeves?,’” Burton said. “And they said, ‘Yeah, we’re quite aware of him. He was a real good lawman.’ I was shocked, you know. Washington, D.C.”Burton contacted historical societies across Oklahoma and was surprised by the response.“So I called up the Muskogee Historical Society. And a lady answered the phone, and I told her I was trying to do some research on Bass Reeves,” Burton said. “And she said, ‘I never heard of him.’ And I said, ‘Well, he was an African-American lawman that served for quite a while in the area.’ She was very polite, she says, ‘Sir, we do not keep black people's history here.’ She couldn’t see my face, but, you know, I’m like, ‘Okay.’” He came across a paper about Reeves, written by a University of Oklahoma student in the 1950s called “The Forgotten Lawman,” which became an anchor for Burton’s 30-plus years of research.From Slave To Deputy U.S. Marshal By most accounts, Reeves was born into slavery in Crawford County in northwest Arkansas in the 1830s. He eventually moved to Texas with his enslaver William Steele Reeves.David Kennedy, curator of collections and exhibits at the U.S. Marshals Museum in Fort Smith, said during the Civil War, Reeves joined his enslaver’s son, an officer in a Confederate cavalry unit.Once when the two were playing poker, Kennedy said according to folklore, the game took an interesting turn.“The son at one point told Bass that if he won this hand, he would get his freedom,” Kennedy said. “And so they played that hand. Bass wins the hand. The son says, ‘No, you're never going to get your freedom.’ At which point Bass gets up, punches the owner's son and leaves.”Reeves did end up gaining his freedom in the early to mid 1860s, when, by most accounts, he escaped to the Choctaw Nation.Since Reeves knew the terrain, languages and customs of Indian Territory, he began working as a guide for U.S. deputy marshals.Patrolling Indian TerritoryThe U.S. District Court for the Western District of Arkansas, which contained the office of the U.S. Marshal Service in Fort Smith, was given jurisdiction over crimes committed in Indian Territory.“And at first, they were just looking for people who - ‘Could you ride a horse? Could you shoot a gun? Could you enforce the law?,’” Kennedy said. “But you got lucky and you got some people like Bass Reeves.”The federal courthouse is a short trek behind the statue of Reeves in downtown Fort Smith.The courthouse was fulfilling a need in the area.Diron Ahlquist, an Oklahoma City-based historian for law enforcement in Indian Territory, said common crimes were murder, larceny, assault and battery, bootlegging alcohol and horse theft. One reason being that white troublemakers from surrounding states would flee to Indian Territory.When Indian Territory was opened to non-Indigenous settlement, thousands of recently freed Black people moved there, including Reeves.He became financially successful as he notched thousand of arrests, including his own son, who he arrested for murder.And since Reeves was illiterate, he would memorize all of his warrants.Was Bass Reeves The Inspiration Behind The Lone Ranger?Art T. Burton, the foremost expert on Reeves, acknowledges he has no definitive proof that The Lone Ranger was based on Reeves, but he draws numerous parallels between the two men in his book “Black Gun, Silver Star.” But not everyone agrees.Martin Grams, a researcher historian for vintage radio broadcasts of the 1930s and '40s, has called many of the comparisons Burton has made between Reeves and The Lone Ranger a stretch, such as both men wearing disguises and riding similar colored horses.Another commonality Burton points out is that Reeves traveled through Indian Territory with an Indigenous posseman, similar to the character Tonto who helped guide The Lone Ranger. Grams said it was common for anyone traveling through Indian Territory to depend on an Indigenous guide.But Grams has two pieces of evidence that seem to put this legend to rest.One is that Grams could find no mention of Reeves in newspaper archives from the time in Detroit, where the show originated, meaning it is highly unlikely the creators of the show knew who Reeves was.Grams also read through correspondence and telegrams between the radio show’s creators and found a day-by-day creation and formation of how “The Lone Ranger” was developed, finding no mention of Reeves.But Grams found a letter between two of the radio program’s creators that said to make The Lone Ranger like the screen version of Tom Mix.“And that's a smoking gun,” Grams said.Mix appeared in hundreds of films, like the 1932 movie “My Pal, the King,” which also starred a young Mickey Rooney.With Statehood Comes Change Reeves was a renowned lawman, but not a flawless character.In 1884, Reeves set up camp while on patrol in Indian Territory. Reeves supposedly got into an argument with his cook. Shortly thereafter, Reeves’ rifle allegedly went off by accident, killing his cook.He was eventually acquitted for the killing. But the cost of his defense and lack of income left him bankrupt.Muskogee is where Reeves spent the last years of his life, transferring there when jurisdiction changed. When Oklahoma became a state in 1907, David Kennedy from the U.S. Marshals Museum said Reeves lost his position as a U.S. deputy marshall.“I think it was telling that you don't hear of any of the famous Black deputies of early Oklahoma statehood, whereas there were at least a couple of dozen deputies who worked out of the Western District of Arkansas during the 1800s,” Kennedy said.Reeves died in 1910. It is unknown where he is buried, but Burton knows one thing is for certain.“Bass is bigger than The Lone Ranger,” Burton said. “I mean, Lone Ranger was a fictional character. Bass Reeves is the real thing, and he did it for a very long time. This was a very dangerous area during the Wild West era. Bass walked into the valley of death every day for 32 years and came out. People are finding him, and I think they want to celebrate who he is.”How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

One evening in July, I drove across the Oklahoma border with my father Les Howard to visit Fort Smith, Arkansas. It’s a few miles away from Pocola, a small town in eastern Oklahoma where my dad grew up and still lives with my mom.We were in Fort Smith to visit a statue of Bass Reeves, one of the first Black deputy U.S. marshals west of the Mississippi River. My dad learned about Reeves a few years ago when he saw the tall, bronze statue. Reeves is now considered among the most prolific law enforcement officers in American history. But in recent years, people have started to also associate Reeves with being the inspiration for the character The Lone Ranger.This is just one example of Reeves’ pop culture ties, being featured in upcoming movies like Netflix’s “The Harder They Fall,” which is a western produced by rapper Jay-Z, and acclaimed TV shows like HBO’s “Watchmen.”The Forgotten Lawman So to get to the bottom of whether Reeves was the real Lone Ranger, I traced the legend back to the main person responsible for popularizing it. In this case, that’s Art T. Burton.He first heard of Reeves as a child while at his grandparents’ home in Arcadia, Oklahoma. But Burton’s interest in Reeves was sparked again in the '80s when he started hearing second hand information about Reeves.“And then he told me that Bass could outride, outshoot, outrope, outfight out-blah, blah, blah, blah,” Burton said. “And my first inclination was these people are off their rocker. Because, you know, if this guy was that good, everybody would have known about him.”From that point forward, Burton was determined to learn everything he could about Reeves.“So I called up the U.S. Marshal's office in Washington, D.C. And I asked them, ‘Have y'all ever heard of Bass Reeves?,’” Burton said. “And they said, ‘Yeah, we’re quite aware of him. He was a real good lawman.’ I was shocked, you know. Washington, D.C.” Burton contacted historical societies across Oklahoma and was surprised by the response.“So I called up the Muskogee Historical Society. And a lady answered the phone, and I told her I was trying to do some research on Bass Reeves,” Burton said. “And she said, ‘I never heard of him.’ And I said, ‘Well, he was an African-American lawman that served for quite a while in the area.’ She was very polite, she says, ‘Sir, we do not keep black people's history here.’ She couldn’t see my face, but, you know, I’m like, ‘Okay.’” He came across a paper about Reeves, written by a University of Oklahoma student in the 1950s called “The Forgotten Lawman,” which became an anchor for Burton’s 30-plus years of research.From Slave To Deputy U.S. Marshal By most accounts, Reeves was born into slavery in Crawford County in northwest Arkansas in the 1830s. He eventually moved to Texas with his enslaver William Steele Reeves.David Kennedy, curator of collections and exhibits at the U.S. Marshals Museum in Fort Smith, said during the Civil War, Reeves joined his enslaver’s son, an officer in a Confederate cavalry unit.Once when the two were playing poker, Kennedy said according to folklore, the game took an interesting turn.“The son at one point told Bass that if he won this hand, he would get his freedom,” Kennedy said. “And so they played that hand. Bass wins the hand. The son says, ‘No, you're never going to get your freedom.’ At which point Bass gets up, punches the owner's son and leaves.”Reeves did end up gaining his freedom in the early to mid 1860s, when, by most accounts, he escaped to the Choctaw Nation.Since Reeves knew the terrain, languages and customs of Indian Territory, he began working as a guide for U.S. deputy marshals.Patrolling Indian TerritoryThe U.S. District Court for the Western District of Arkansas, which contained the office of the U.S. Marshal Service in Fort Smith, was given jurisdiction over crimes committed in Indian Territory.“And at first, they were just looking for people who - ‘Could you ride a horse? Could you shoot a gun? Could you enforce the law?,’” Kennedy said. “But you got lucky and you got some people like Bass Reeves.”The federal courthouse is a short trek behind the statue of Reeves in downtown Fort Smith.The courthouse was fulfilling a need in the area.Diron Ahlquist, an Oklahoma City-based historian for law enforcement in Indian Territory, said common crimes were murder, larceny, assault and battery, bootlegging alcohol and horse theft. One reason being that white troublemakers from surrounding states would flee to Indian Territory.When Indian Territory was opened to non-Indigenous settlement, thousands of recently freed Black people moved there, including Reeves.He became financially successful as he notched thousand of arrests, including his own son, who he arrested for murder.And since Reeves was illiterate, he would memorize all of his warrants.Was Bass Reeves The Inspiration Behind The Lone Ranger?Art T. Burton, the foremost expert on Reeves, acknowledges he has no definitive proof that The Lone Ranger was based on Reeves, but he draws numerous parallels between the two men in his book “Black Gun, Silver Star.” But not everyone agrees.Martin Grams, a researcher historian for vintage radio broadcasts of the 1930s and '40s, has called many of the comparisons Burton has made between Reeves and The Lone Ranger a stretch, such as both men wearing disguises and riding similar colored horses.Another commonality Burton points out is that Reeves traveled through Indian Territory with an Indigenous posseman, similar to the character Tonto who helped guide The Lone Ranger. Grams said it was common for anyone traveling through Indian Territory to depend on an Indigenous guide. But Grams has two pieces of evidence that seem to put this legend to rest.One is that Grams could find no mention of Reeves in newspaper archives from the time in Detroit, where the show originated, meaning it is highly unlikely the creators of the show knew who Reeves was.Grams also read through correspondence and telegrams between the radio show’s creators and found a day-by-day creation and formation of how “The Lone Ranger” was developed, finding no mention of Reeves.But Grams found a letter between two of the radio program’s creators that said to make The Lone Ranger like the screen version of Tom Mix.“And that's a smoking gun,” Grams said.Mix appeared in hundreds of films, like the 1932 movie “My Pal, the King,” which also starred a young Mickey Rooney.With Statehood Comes Change Reeves was a renowned lawman, but not a flawless character.In 1884, Reeves set up camp while on patrol in Indian Territory. Reeves supposedly got into an argument with his cook. Shortly thereafter, Reeves’ rifle allegedly went off by accident, killing his cook.He was eventually acquitted for the killing. But the cost of his defense and lack of income left him bankrupt.Muskogee is where Reeves spent the last years of his life, transferring there when jurisdiction changed. When Oklahoma became a state in 1907, David Kennedy from the U.S. Marshals Museum said Reeves lost his position as a U.S. deputy marshall.“I think it was telling that you don't hear of any of the famous Black deputies of early Oklahoma statehood, whereas there were at least a couple of dozen deputies who worked out of the Western District of Arkansas during the 1800s,” Kennedy said.Reeves died in 1910. It is unknown where he is buried, but Burton knows one thing is for certain.“Bass is bigger than The Lone Ranger,” Burton said. “I mean, Lone Ranger was a fictional character. Bass Reeves is the real thing, and he did it for a very long time. This was a very dangerous area during the Wild West era. Bass walked into the valley of death every day for 32 years and came out. People are finding him, and I think they want to celebrate who he is.”How Curious is a production of KGOU Public Radio. It’s produced by Katelyn Howard. This episode was edited by Logan Layden. David Graey composed the theme music. If you have an Oklahoma-related question, email <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: Was An Oklahoma Lawman The Inspiration Behind The Lone Ranger?

Why is there a Putnam City school district in Oklahoma but no Putnam City?KGOU listener Tim Spindle fielded this exact question a while back. He operates a hotline for Oklahoma libraries, where he and a team answer thousands of customer questions, from “What library book should I read next?” to “What is the Mayan word for squirrel?” Spindle, who’s from the Putnam City area, reached out to How Curious for more information on its history. A Man With A Plan Israel Mercer Putnam moved to Oklahoma City in July 1901, after earning a law degree from the University of Georgia. Putnam opened a law firm, but he found greater success in real estate. In 1902, he formed the Putnam Company and developed several projects, including the Putnam Heights and Military Park neighborhoods. The company bought 2,000 acres of land northwest of Oklahoma City in 1910, where Putnam planned to build his dream metropolis--Putnam City.At the time, the state's first legislature was debating where to put Oklahoma's capitol building. Putnam, who served in the legislature as a Democrat, offered up his 2,000 acres.A proposed layout shows Putnam City Loop, a large road curving around commercial and residential properties and into an open green space, “Putnam City Grove,” where Putnam hoped to build the capitol. According to the Oklahoma History Center, the state House of Representatives accepted Putnam’s offer, but the Senate objected. Several Oklahoma City leaders felt the site was too far from downtown and the central business district. Another real estate firm offered 40 acres at Northeast 23rd Street and North Lincoln Boulevard--where Oklahoma’s state capitol sits today. Independent School District No. 1Following the failed state capitol deal, Putnam found another use for his property. In 1914, when leaders of four one-room schools decided to consolidate under a new Oklahoma law, Putnam gave them the land. The first classes were held the same year in what is now Putnam City Schools' Arnett Building. Five years later, in 1919, the district graduated its first three students. “The first few years, the school buses were horse-drawn here,” said Mike Brake, who runs the Putnam City Schools Museum, a building crammed with yearbooks, sports uniforms and other memorabilia from the district’s history. “People rode their horses to school and they had a hitching post out front. It was country out here--really country.”Putnam remained in the land business in Oklahoma before eventually moving to Texas, where he died in 1961. Today, Putnam City Schools consists of 27 schools across Bethany, Oklahoma City and Warr Acres. Despite Putnam’s vision, there is still no Putnam City municipality.How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly. This episode was edited by Jacob McCleland and Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

Why is there a Putnam City school district in Oklahoma but no Putnam City?KGOU listener Tim Spindle fielded this exact question a while back. He operates a hotline for Oklahoma libraries, where he and a team answer thousands of customer questions, from “What library book should I read next?” to “What is the Mayan word for squirrel?” Spindle, who’s from the Putnam City area, reached out to How Curious for more information on its history. A Man With A Plan <a href="https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=PU007" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Israel Mercer Putnam</a> moved to Oklahoma City in July 1901, after earning a law degree from the University of Georgia. Putnam opened a law firm, but he found greater success in real estate. In 1902, he formed the Putnam Company and developed several projects, including the Putnam Heights and Military Park neighborhoods. The company bought 2,000 acres of land northwest of Oklahoma City in 1910, where Putnam planned to build his dream metropolis--Putnam City.At the time, the state's first legislature was debating where to put Oklahoma's capitol building. Putnam, who served in the legislature as a Democrat, offered up his 2,000 acres.A proposed layout shows Putnam City Loop, a large road curving around commercial and residential properties and into an open green space, “Putnam City Grove,” where Putnam hoped to build the capitol. According to the Oklahoma History Center, the state House of Representatives accepted Putnam’s offer, but the Senate objected. Several Oklahoma City leaders felt the site was too far from downtown and the central business district. Another real estate firm offered 40 acres at Northeast 23rd Street and North Lincoln Boulevard--where Oklahoma’s state capitol sits today. Independent School District No. 1Following the failed state capitol deal, Putnam found another use for his property. In 1914, when leaders of four one-room schools decided to consolidate under a new Oklahoma law, Putnam gave them the land. The first classes were held the same year in what is now Putnam City Schools' Arnett Building. Five years later, in 1919, the district graduated its first three students. “The first few years, the school buses were horse-drawn here,” said Mike Brake, who runs the <a href="http://putnamcityschoolsmuseum.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Putnam City Schools Museum</a>, a building crammed with yearbooks, sports uniforms and other memorabilia from the district’s history. “People rode their horses to school and they had a hitching post out front. It was country out here--really country.”Putnam remained in the land business in Oklahoma before eventually moving to Texas, where he died in 1961. Today, Putnam City Schools consists of 27 schools across Bethany, Oklahoma City and Warr Acres. Despite Putnam’s vision, there is still no Putnam City municipality.How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly. This episode was edited by Jacob McCleland and Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: A City That Never Was?

(Claire Donnelly / KGOU)KGOU listener John Potts noticed every auto dealership in the state is closed on Sunday, so he asked How Curious for an explanation. It turns out that Oklahoma is one of several states that forbids motor vehicle sales on Sundays. Blue LawsSunday car sales have been prohibited in Oklahoma since 1959. The statute is one of several so-called “blue laws” that is still on the books.  Blue laws restrict Sunday activities, and they date back centuries. Some say they are known as blue laws because the earliest Sunday restrictions were printed on blue paper. Others say the term comes from the legislation’s goal of encouraging “true blue,” or faithful behavior. According to David Laband, co-author of Blue Laws: The History, Economics, and Politics of Sunday-Closing Laws, ancient Roman emperors had edicts proscribing certain activities on days of worship.Blue laws began to appear in the United States by the early 17th century. Banned Sunday activities included things like plowing and traveling between states.By 1931, all 48 states, except California, had enacted blue laws, according to the Oklahoma History Center. State and municipal governments banned a wide array of Sunday activities, from alcohol and tobacco sales, to boxing, to serving warrants and subpoenas. Laband said there is little research on why states passed specific laws. Oklahoma’s First Territorial Legislature included blue laws in the 1890 statutes, and “Sabbath breaking” is still technically on the books. Local authorities cited several state residents under the law in the 1950s, including Midwest City Chevrolet dealer Paul Hudiburg, who was accused of Sunday selling along with nine salesmen. In the 1960s and 1970s, groups like the Oklahoma Retail Merchants Association and the Save Our Sundays Committee petitioned for a law requiring all businesses to close either Saturday or Sunday each week. The petitions were unsuccessful, according to the Oklahoma History Center. Many states have gradually repealed blue laws since the 1950s, which Laband said may be connected to declining church attendance and membership in the United States. “With that decline in religiosity has surely also come a decline in people who would fight removing blue laws in the legislatures,” Laband said.“Sunday Is For The Lord And Football”Bob Brice manages sales at  Automax Hyundai in Norman. He thinks Oklahoma car dealership owners would prefer to be open on Sunday, but staff members are grateful for the weekly respite.  “We work 70 hours a week as it is. We need a break like anybody else. Sunday is a day for the Lord--and football,” Brice said. “I think if you were going to choose a day to be closed, Sunday would probably be the better day of the seven,” said Sherad Cravens, a marketing instructor at the University of Oklahoma’s Price College of Business. Cravens said consumers tend to adjust their purchasing habits around business hours, and car shopping is generally a time-consuming process. “It’s something that you’re going to research, you’re going to think about. So if you’re making a car purchase, you’re probably either going to take a day off or a half day and plan to go,” he said, adding that car dealerships are usually  busiest on holidays like Memorial Day and the 4th of July. The market for cars is also shifting. Brands like Carvana let consumers buy a car online and pick it up from a “car vending machine” or have it delivered to their home. So whether Oklahoma’s Sunday-closing laws stay on the books or not, people will probably spend their Sundays however they want, whether that’s online shopping, snooping around a car lot or indulging in some Netflix.How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly. This episode was edited by Jacob McCleland and Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

(Claire Donnelly / KGOU)KGOU listener John Potts noticed every auto dealership in the state is closed on Sunday, so he asked How Curious for an explanation. It turns out that Oklahoma is one of several states that forbids motor vehicle sales on Sundays. Blue LawsSunday car sales have been prohibited in Oklahoma since 1959. The statute is one of several so-called “<a href="https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=BL014" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">blue laws</a>” that is still on the books.  Blue laws restrict Sunday activities, and they date back centuries. Some say they are known as blue laws because the earliest Sunday restrictions were printed on blue paper. Others say the term comes from the legislation’s goal of encouraging “true blue,” or faithful behavior. According to David Laband, <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Laws-Economics-Politics-Sunday-Closing/dp/0982147309" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">co-author</a> of Blue Laws: The History, Economics, and Politics of Sunday-Closing Laws, ancient Roman emperors had edicts proscribing certain activities on days of worship.Blue laws began to appear in the United States by the early 17th century. Banned Sunday activities included things like plowing and traveling between states.By 1931, all 48 states, except California, had enacted blue laws, according to the Oklahoma History Center. State and municipal governments banned a wide array of Sunday activities, from alcohol and tobacco sales, to boxing, to serving warrants and subpoenas. Laband said there is little research on why states passed specific laws. Oklahoma’s First Territorial Legislature included blue laws in the 1890 statutes, and “<a href="http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69428" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Sabbath breaking</a>” is still technically on the books. Local authorities cited several state residents under the law in the 1950s, including Midwest City Chevrolet dealer Paul Hudiburg, who was accused of Sunday selling along with nine salesmen. In the 1960s and 1970s, groups like the Oklahoma Retail Merchants Association and the Save Our Sundays Committee petitioned for a law requiring all businesses to close either Saturday or Sunday each week. The petitions were unsuccessful, according to the Oklahoma History Center. Many states have gradually repealed blue laws since the 1950s, which Laband said may be connected to declining church attendance and membership in the United States. “With that decline in religiosity has surely also come a decline in people who would fight removing blue laws in the legislatures,” Laband said.“Sunday Is For The Lord And Football”Bob Brice manages sales at  Automax Hyundai in Norman. He thinks Oklahoma car dealership owners would prefer to be open on Sunday, but staff members are grateful for the weekly respite.  “We work 70 hours a week as it is. We need a break like anybody else. Sunday is a day for the Lord--and football,” Brice said. “I think if you were going to choose a day to be closed, Sunday would probably be the better day of the seven,” said Sherad Cravens, a marketing instructor at the University of Oklahoma’s Price College of Business. Cravens said consumers tend to adjust their purchasing habits around business hours, and car shopping is generally a time-consuming process. “It’s something that you’re going to research, you’re going to think about. So if you’re making a car purchase, you’re probably either going to take a day off or a half day and plan to go,” he said, adding that car dealerships are usually  busiest on holidays like Memorial Day and the 4th of July. The market for cars is also shifting. Brands like Carvana let consumers buy a car online and pick it up from a “car vending machine” or have it delivered to their home. So whether Oklahoma’s Sunday-closing laws stay on the books or not, people will probably spend their Sundays however they want, whether that’s online shopping, snooping around a car lot or indulging in some Netflix.How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly. This episode was edited by Jacob McCleland and Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: Why Can’t You Buy A Car In Oklahoma On Sunday?

They take questions from people, like the founding of Nichols Hills, and go research the answers. They find some interesting trivia about Oklahoma.

Fun podcast about Oklahoma

Great first episode. I love Oklahoma history. Thanks for sharing the stories!

Thank you!

How Curious

(Center for Spatial Analysis / University of Oklahoma)Oklahoma has more than 500 school districts--up to three times more than some states with similar student populations. KGOU listener Beverly Funderburk emailed How Curious and asked: “How did Oklahoma end up with so many districts?”    Jim Machell, Dean of the College of Education and Professional Studies at the University of Central Oklahoma, made a list of Oklahoma school districts organized by student population. Oklahoma’s two largest districts are at the top of the list:  Oklahoma City Public Schools and Tulsa Public Schools, each with between 40,000 and 45,000 students. The bottom of the list shows about 400 districts with fewer than 1,000 students apiece.  “I was surprised to learn that there are 29 school districts in the state that serve fewer than 100 students, which to me, is just baffling,” Machell said. Oklahoma also has a large number of school superintendents.  According to Machell, the state could save about $27 million by combining, or consolidating, some smaller school districts into bigger ones and reducing the overall number of superintendents. He said fewer superintendent salaries would mean more available school funding.  Emily Wendler, education reporter at StateImpact Oklahoma, said it’s misleading to argue Oklahoma spends more money on administration because it has more school districts.  “According to U.S. Census data, that’s not true at all,” Wendler said.  She said while Oklahoma spends the same amount or more on superintendent salaries than other states with similar student populations, like Kentucky, Louisiana, Alabama and South Carolina, it spends less on overall administration. Wendler said superintendents in smaller districts often hold other positions ranging from school principal to bus driver.  “[If] you consolidated two districts with 100 students and you had two superintendents wearing lots of different hats, it’s not like you just all of a sudden have one superintendent wearing all those hats,” Wendler said.  She said the district may have to find other people to do those jobs after consolidation.  Some people argue focusing on the number of districts is a distraction from other education issues, like teacher recruitment and salaries.  Early Schools The history of Oklahoma’s school districts starts with the 1889 Land Run, when the U.S. government opened up land in the state for white settlement after forcing out Native Americans. The federal government did not provide rules for early settlers.  In 1890, U.S. officials created Oklahoma Territory and borrowed laws from Nebraska before state officials started making school laws for Oklahoma.  According to Larry Johnson, special collections manager for the Metropolitan Library System, most early schools were subscription schools, meaning those who wanted education had to pay for it themselves. Oklahoma then started a school land system, in which towns would lease land to farmers and ranchers to fund schools.  In addition to district superintendents, each county had its own elected countywide superintendent. It was an effort to decentralize the school system and maintain local control, but Johnson said the politics of the job caused problems.  “Those were the days of machine politics and patronage and corruption,” he said.  Teacher and administrator quality varied greatly because elected superintendents could give school jobs to friends and supporters as rewards. A district could also set its own property tax rate to determine school funding, which often led to inequity.  “I read one thing that said only 25 percent of the schools had a United States map,” Johnson said.  By The Numbers Oklahoma had just under 6,000 school districts when it became a state in 1907 because state law required it to provide free public schools and free transportation within a two mile radius.  In 1947, lawmakers decided to consolidate any school with fewer than eight pupils and did so for 1,600 districts, bringing the state’s total number to nearly 4,000 districts.  Larry Johnson of the Metropolitan Library said it was a major victory for lawmakers, but led to resentment in rural areas, like in Dewey County where his father was raised.  “His neighbors and family and friends all gathered at the local school for their Christmas party, for the ice cream social, for weddings. Any type of community event they would have at the school,” Johnson said.  Communities lost these gathering places when schools closed.  In 1955, Oklahoma lawmakers considered a measure on school integration called the Better Schools Amendment.  Johnson said this measure incentivized districts to integrate and consolidate by allowing integrated schools to keep the funding from their composite segregated schools.  The amendment passed and the number of school districts gradually shrank.  According to the Oklahoma State Department of Education, the state had around 600 districts in 1989. Through the years, the Oklahoma Legislature has passed bills aimed at incentivizing and assisting with consolidation. The state now has 540 districts, including charter school districts.How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly and edited by Jacob McCleland. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

(Center for Spatial Analysis / University of Oklahoma)Oklahoma has more than 500 school districts--up to three times more than some states with similar student populations. KGOU listener Beverly Funderburk emailed How Curious and asked: “How did Oklahoma end up with so many districts?” Jim Machell, Dean of the College of Education and Professional Studies at the University of Central Oklahoma, made a list of Oklahoma school districts organized by student population. Oklahoma’s two largest districts are at the top of the list:  Oklahoma City Public Schools and Tulsa Public Schools, each with between 40,000 and 45,000 students. The bottom of the list shows about 400 districts with fewer than 1,000 students apiece. “I was surprised to learn that there are 29 school districts in the state that serve fewer than 100 students, which to me, is just baffling,” Machell said. Oklahoma also has a large <a href="https://sde.ok.gov/sites/default/files/documents/files/FY19%20Supts.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">number</a> of school superintendents. According to Machell, the state could <a href="http://sites.uco.edu/ceps/files/resources/directory-page-files/jmachell.rightsizing.july2018.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">save</a> about $27 million by combining, or consolidating, some smaller school districts into bigger ones and reducing the overall number of superintendents. He said fewer superintendent salaries would mean more available school funding. Emily Wendler, education reporter at <a href="https://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">StateImpact Oklahoma</a>, said it’s misleading to argue Oklahoma spends more money on administration because it has more school districts. “According to U.S. Census data, that’s not true at all,” Wendler said. She said while Oklahoma spends the same amount or more on superintendent salaries than other states with similar student populations, like Kentucky, Louisiana, Alabama and South Carolina, it spends less on <a href="https://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2017/12/01/governor-pushes-for-consolidation-but-school-leaders-say-administration-isnt-waste/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">overall administration</a>. Wendler said superintendents in smaller districts often hold other positions ranging from school principal to bus driver. “[If] you consolidated two districts with 100 students and you had two superintendents wearing lots of different hats, it’s not like you just all of a sudden have one superintendent wearing all those hats,” Wendler said. She said the district may have to find other people to do those jobs after consolidation. Some people argue focusing on the number of districts is a distraction from other education <a href="http://www.kgou.org/post/lawmakers-pass-rare-tax-increase-education-funding-falls-short-teachers-demands" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">issues</a>, like teacher recruitment and salaries. Early Schools The history of Oklahoma’s school districts starts with the 1889 Land Run, when the U.S. government opened up land in the state for white settlement after forcing out Native Americans. The federal government did not provide rules for early settlers. In 1890, U.S. officials created Oklahoma Territory and borrowed <a href="https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=OK025" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">laws</a> from Nebraska before state officials started making school laws for Oklahoma. According to Larry Johnson, special collections manager for the Metropolitan Library System, most early schools were <a href="https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=SC005" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">subscription</a> schools, meaning those who wanted education had to pay for it themselves. Oklahoma then started a school land system, in which towns would lease land to farmers and ranchers to fund schools. In addition to district superintendents, each county had its own elected countywide superintendent. It was an effort to decentralize the school system and maintain local control, but Johnson said the politics of the job caused problems. “Those were the days of machine politics and patronage and corruption,” he said. Teacher and administrator quality varied greatly because elected superintendents could give school jobs to friends and supporters as rewards. A district could also set its own property tax rate to determine school funding, which often led to inequity. “I read one thing that said only 25 percent of the schools had a United States map,” Johnson said. By The Numbers Oklahoma had just under 6,000 school districts when it became a state in 1907 because state law required it to provide free public schools and free transportation within a two mile radius. In 1947, lawmakers decided to consolidate any school with fewer than eight pupils and did so for 1,600 districts, bringing the state’s total number to nearly 4,000 districts. Larry Johnson of the Metropolitan Library said it was a major victory for lawmakers, but led to resentment in rural areas, like in Dewey County where his father was raised. “His neighbors and family and friends all gathered at the local school for their Christmas party, for the ice cream social, for weddings. Any type of community event they would have at the school,” Johnson said. Communities lost these gathering places when schools closed. In 1955, Oklahoma lawmakers considered a <a href="https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=BE028" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">measure</a> on school integration called the Better Schools Amendment. Johnson said this measure incentivized districts to integrate and consolidate by allowing integrated schools to keep the funding from their composite segregated schools. The amendment passed and the number of school districts gradually shrank. According to the Oklahoma State Department of Education, the state had around <a href="https://sde.ok.gov/sites/ok.gov.sde/files/documents/files/Annexation-Consolidation%20Assistance%20Document%20Guidelines%20%20Complete-%202015.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">600 districts</a> in 1989. Through the years, the Oklahoma Legislature has passed bills aimed at incentivizing and assisting with consolidation. The state now has 540 districts, including charter school districts.How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly and edited by Jacob McCleland. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: Why Does Oklahoma Have So Many School Districts?

The Green Book was a guide for African Americans traveling during segregation. It listed businesses that did not discriminate on the basis of race. KGOU listener Luciana Simmons asked How Curious: Where were Oklahoma’s Green Book entries? Do they still exist?  Simmons researched The Green Book after reading about it online, long before the movie “Green Book” was released in 2018. She found a digitally archived copy featuring dozens of Oklahoma listings.  “Nowadays, we kind of take it for granted that we can stop wherever we want if we need a hotel or restaurant or gas station,” Simmons said. “If you were African American, you couldn’t always do that.” “Carry Your Green Book With You...You May Need It!”New York-based travel agent Victor Green and his wife, Alma, published a guide for African American motorists called The Negro Motorist Green Book in 1936. Its goal, according to the 1948 edition, was “to give the Negro traveler information that will keep him from running into difficulties [and] embarrassments and to make his trips more enjoyable.” The Green Book listed hotels, restaurants, mechanics, and barbershops, as well as rooming houses, or “tourist homes,” overnight facilities typically owned and operated by women that often offered meals in addition to beds. The guide initially focused on the New York area and expanded in 1937.The book was published annually, except during World War II, through the late 1960s. According to an article by Frank Norris in the New Mexico Historical Review, some two million copies of The Green Book were distributed to the traveling public in 1962. The guide’s final edition was renamed the Travelers Green Book: 1966-67 International Edition: For Vacation Without Aggravation. Bruce Fisher, a retired administrative programs officer for the Oklahoma Historical Society, grew up in Oklahoma. He took regular vacations with his family in the early 1960s.“We would go to the Grand Canyon and those kind of places,” Fisher said. “I didn't know why my parents did not vacation in the southern part of the United States.” Fisher said he does not remember using The Green Book, but he said his family had to be careful about where they went.“My dad was getting low on gasoline...and he stopped at the filling station. And the owner...was willing to provide gasoline but would not let us use the restroom.” Fisher said his father decided to patronize a different business.During segregation, many African American motorists would drive all night or pack picnic baskets of food to avoid stopping in unfamiliar cities. “Carry your Green Book with you...you may need it!” read the cover of the guide’s 25th Anniversary 1961 edition.  “Dancing The Planks Off The Floor”Oklahoma first appeared in The Green Book in 1939. The guide had more than 100 listings across Boley, Chickasha, Enid, Guthrie, Muskogee, Oklahoma City, Okmulgee, Sapulpa, Seminole, Shawnee, Tulsa and Wewoka through 1967, according to digitized copies from the New York Public Library. Oklahoma City had about 40 entries, including many on the 300 block of Northeast Second Street, also known as “Deep Deuce,” “Deep Two” and “Deep Second.” The neighborhood was the center of life for the city’s African Americans from the early 1900s to the late 1950s.“Anything you needed--lawyers offices, dentists offices--you could get it here on Second Street,” said Bruce Fisher, who remembers getting his hair cut at Deep Deuce’s Golden Oak Barbershop, which was included in The Green Book from 1947 to 1955. “It would be a constant hub of activity all day and late into the night.”By day, it was a business district with barbershops, beauty parlors, clothing stores, a hardware store and other shops and offices. The Black Dispatch, a weekly African American newspaper, had its headquarters in Deep Deuce.In the evening, musicians like Charlie Christian and Jimmy Rushing performed at nightclubs, dance halls and theaters, including the Aldridge Theater, Slaughter’s Hall and Ruby’s. (Oklahoma Historical Society)The Littlepage Hotel, a longtime feature in The Green Book, was the home of The Blue Devils band.  “Girl, we liked to have danced the planks off the floor!” said the late State Rep. Freddie Williams, referencing Slaughter’s Hall.Williams was quoted in the book Oklahoma City Music: Deep Deuce and Beyond by Anita Arnold, who also directs the Black Liberated Arts Center. Arnold lived in the countryside until she was 13. She remembers being impressed by Deep Deuce when her family moved to Oklahoma City.“I had hit the big lights. I had never seen anything like it,” Arnold said. Arnold worked at Randolph Drug Store, a Green Book business, as a high school senior. She made malts, milkshakes and sundaes at the soda fountain, sometimes unknowingly meeting well-known figures like Jack Washington, a jazz saxophonist who played in the Count Basie Orchestra. “He used to come in there a lot and sit down at the counter. [...] It was not until I started writing...40 years later, that I said, ‘Oh, that was Jack Washington!’”  (Dave Dexter, Jr. Collection, Labudde Special Collections, Miller Nichols Library, UMKC)Where Are They Now?In July 1964, Pres. Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act into law. It prohibited discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters and other public accommodations, among other things. Many previously segregated businesses opened their doors to African Americans and other races.“Black motorists, in turn, began quickly patronizing mainstream hostelries, and as a consequence, many of the businesses that had long depended on black travelers began to shut down,” wrote Frank Norris. In Oklahoma City and Tulsa, very few addresses listed in The Green Book are still standing. Many of Tulsa’s listings were centered around the city’s Greenwood District, which was looted and burned by white rioters in June 1921. According to the Tulsa Historical Society, 35 city blocks were destroyed and as many as 300 people may have died. The National Park Service is conducting a survey of guidebook properties along Route 66. So far it has found more than 200 structures out of some 360 have been demolished. But at least 86 original buildings are still standing, including a handful in Oklahoma City: the former Ruby’s Grill, 322 N.E. Second St.; Littlepage Hotel, 219 N. Central St.; Luster’s Modern Motel (now Delux Inn), 3402 N.E. 23rd St.; and Wayside Motel (now abandoned), 2028 N. Bryant St. The former YMCA, 614 N.E. 4th St., is now the Henrietta B. Foster Center.  Look through a spreadsheet of the state’s Green Book listings. View a map with many of Oklahoma City’s Green Book listings. View digitized copies of The Green Book.   How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It’s produced by Claire Donnelly and this episode was edited by Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Additional Music Credits: Seven Come Eleven, Charlie Christian with The Benny Goodman Sextet And Orchestra; Boogie Woogie (I May Be Wrong), Jimmy Rushing; Jive At Five, Count Basie Orchestra; Squabblin’, Walter Page’s Blue Devils. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.  As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

The Green Book was a guide for African Americans traveling during segregation. It listed businesses that did not discriminate on the basis of race. KGOU listener Luciana Simmons asked How Curious: Where were Oklahoma’s Green Book entries? Do they still exist? Simmons researched The Green Book after reading about it online, long before the <a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6966692/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">movie</a> “Green Book” was released in 2018. She found a digitally archived copy featuring dozens of Oklahoma listings. “Nowadays, we kind of take it for granted that we can stop wherever we want if we need a hotel or restaurant or gas station,” Simmons said. “If you were African American, you couldn’t always do that.” “Carry Your Green Book With You...You May Need It!”New York-based travel agent Victor Green and his wife, Alma, published a <a href="https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/collections/the-green-book#/?tab=about" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">guide</a> for African American motorists called The Negro Motorist Green Book in 1936. Its goal, according to the 1948 <a href="https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/6fa574f0-893f-0132-1035-58d385a7bbd0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">edition</a>, was “to give the Negro traveler information that will keep him from running into difficulties [and] embarrassments and to make his trips more enjoyable.” The Green Book listed hotels, restaurants, mechanics, and barbershops, as well as rooming houses, or “tourist homes,” overnight facilities typically owned and operated by women that often offered meals in addition to beds. The guide initially focused on the New York area and expanded in 1937.The book was published annually, except during World War II, through the late 1960s. According to an <a href="https://ejournals.unm.edu/index.php/nmhr/article/view/3471" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">article</a> by Frank Norris in the New Mexico Historical Review, some two million copies of The Green Book were distributed to the traveling public in 1962. The guide’s final edition was renamed the Travelers Green Book: 1966-67 International Edition: For Vacation Without Aggravation. Bruce Fisher, a retired administrative programs officer for the Oklahoma Historical Society, grew up in Oklahoma. He took regular vacations with his family in the early 1960s.“We would go to the Grand Canyon and those kind of places,” Fisher said. “I didn't know why my parents did not vacation in the southern part of the United States.” Fisher said he does not remember using The Green Book, but he said his family had to be careful about where they went.“My dad was getting low on gasoline...and he stopped at the filling station. And the owner...was willing to provide gasoline but would not let us use the restroom.” Fisher said his father decided to patronize a different business.During segregation, many African American motorists would drive all night or pack picnic baskets of food to avoid stopping in unfamiliar cities. “Carry your Green Book with you...you may need it!” read the cover of the guide’s 25th Anniversary 1961 <a href="https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/5ae34320-942e-0132-7630-58d385a7bbd0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">edition</a>. “Dancing The Planks Off The Floor”Oklahoma first appeared in The Green Book in 1939. The guide had more than 100 <a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WSsBkYNjIPk3PqKZkyszcZA3HXEGPzbQY79G-BiAn0U/edit#gid=0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">listings</a> across Boley, Chickasha, Enid, Guthrie, Muskogee, Oklahoma City, Okmulgee, Sapulpa, Seminole, Shawnee, Tulsa and Wewoka through 1967, according to digitized <a href="https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/collections/the-green-book#/?tab=about" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">copies</a> from the New York Public Library. Oklahoma City had about 40 entries, including many on the 300 block of Northeast <a href="https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=SE004" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Second Street</a>, also known as “Deep Deuce,” “Deep Two” and “Deep Second.” The neighborhood was the center of life for the city’s African Americans from the early 1900s to the late 1950s.“Anything you needed--lawyers offices, dentists offices--you could get it here on Second Street,” said Bruce Fisher, who remembers getting his hair cut at Deep Deuce’s Golden Oak Barbershop, which was included in The Green Book from 1947 to 1955. “It would be a constant hub of activity all day and late into the night.”By day, it was a business district with barbershops, beauty parlors, clothing stores, a hardware store and other shops and offices. The Black Dispatch, a weekly African American newspaper, had its headquarters in Deep Deuce.In the evening, musicians like <a href="http://www.okjazz.org/index.cfm?id=84" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Charlie Christian</a> and <a href="https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=RU003" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Jimmy Rushing</a> performed at nightclubs, dance halls and theaters, including the Aldridge Theater, Slaughter’s Hall and Ruby’s. (Oklahoma Historical Society)The Littlepage Hotel, a longtime feature in The Green Book, was the home of The Blue Devils <a href="https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=BL012" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">band</a>. “Girl, we liked to have danced the planks off the floor!” said the late State Rep. Freddie Williams, referencing Slaughter’s Hall.Williams was quoted in the book Oklahoma City Music: Deep Deuce and Beyond by Anita Arnold, who also directs the Black Liberated Arts Center. Arnold lived in the countryside until she was 13. She remembers being impressed by Deep Deuce when her family moved to Oklahoma City.“I had hit the big lights. I had never seen anything like it,” Arnold said. Arnold worked at Randolph Drug Store, a Green Book business, as a high school senior. She made malts, milkshakes and sundaes at the soda fountain, sometimes unknowingly meeting well-known figures like Jack Washington, a jazz saxophonist who played in the Count Basie Orchestra. “He used to come in there a lot and sit down at the counter. [...] It was not until I started writing...40 years later, that I said, ‘Oh, that was Jack Washington!’”  (Dave Dexter, Jr. Collection, Labudde Special Collections, Miller Nichols Library, UMKC)Where Are They Now?In July 1964, Pres. Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act into law. It prohibited discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters and other public accommodations, among other things. Many previously segregated businesses opened their doors to African Americans and other races.“Black motorists, in turn, began quickly patronizing mainstream hostelries, and as a consequence, many of the businesses that had long depended on black travelers began to shut down,” wrote Frank Norris. In Oklahoma City and Tulsa, very few addresses listed in The Green Book are still standing. Many of Tulsa’s listings were centered around the city’s Greenwood District, which was looted and burned by white rioters in June 1921. According to the Tulsa Historical Society, 35 city blocks were <a href="https://www.tulsahistory.org/exhibit/1921-tulsa-race-massacre/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">destroyed</a> and as many as 300 people may have died. The National Park Service is conducting a survey of guidebook properties along Route 66. So far it has found more than 200 structures out of some 360 have been demolished. But at least 86 original buildings are still standing, including a handful in Oklahoma City: the former Ruby’s Grill, 322 N.E. Second St.; Littlepage Hotel, 219 N. Central St.; Luster’s Modern Motel (now Delux Inn), 3402 N.E. 23rd St.; and Wayside Motel (now abandoned), 2028 N. Bryant St. The former YMCA, 614 N.E. 4th St., is now the Henrietta B. Foster Center. Look through a <a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1WSsBkYNjIPk3PqKZkyszcZA3HXEGPzbQY79G-BiAn0U/edit#gid=0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">spreadsheet</a> of the state’s Green Book listings. View a <a href="https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=3329397&amp;add=1#" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">map</a> with many of Oklahoma City’s Green Book listings. View digitized <a href="https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/collections/the-green-book#/?tab=about" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">copies</a> of The Green Book. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It’s produced by Claire Donnelly and this episode was edited by Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Additional Music Credits: Seven Come Eleven, Charlie Christian with The Benny Goodman Sextet And Orchestra; Boogie Woogie (I May Be Wrong), Jimmy Rushing; Jive At Five, Count Basie Orchestra; Squabblin’, Walter Page’s Blue Devils. Email your questions about Oklahoma to <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: Where Were Oklahoma’s Green Book Listings?

(Unknown)Western author Louis L’Amour is said to have lived in Choctaw, Oklahoma during the 1930s and 1940s. One listener wanted to know if the rumor is true, and, if so, where exactly was his home? “According to Choctaw lore, Louis L’Amour lived here for a time. Can you tell me where he lived?” emailed KGOU listener Jo, who lives in Choctaw. “No One Even Comes Close” Louis L’Amour was a prolific Western author. He wrote several hundred novels and short stories starting in the 1940s, such as “The Shadow Riders"and “To The Far Blue Mountains,” and some were adapted into movies.  “No one even comes close, writing about the West, to the popularity of Louis L’Amour,” said Richard Etulain, a retired history professor specializing in the history and literature of the American West. L’Amour’s stories follow a typical pattern, according to Etulain. They usually feature three main character types--a hero, a villain and a heroine--and each chapter usually ends on a cliffhanger.   “Within the first two or three chapters, Louis L'Amour will have already clear in your mind which ones are the rascals and which ones are going to be the heroes,” said Etulain. Etulain says L’Amour’s stories are full of adventure, but he focused more on action than on character development.  “They’re not cerebral books. We read them not so much for the ideas as for the actions that occur,” Etulain explained.  (Unknown)A Little BackgroundL’Amour was born in North Dakota in 1908. Financial troubles forced his family to move throughout the western United States starting in the mid 1920s.As an adult, L’Amour traveled widely and held a variety of jobs, from baling hay in New Mexico to working in the mines of Arizona, California and Nevada. He worked on a merchant ship that sailed to England, Japan, China, Egypt and Panama, among other places. And L’Amour had a sporadic career as a professional boxer. “Traveling around the country and working in various remote locations gave [L’Amour] an intimate first-hand knowledge of the territory and landscape where the majority if his stories would be set,” wrote Beau L’Amour, Louis’ son, on the Louis L’Amour website.  L’Amour also spent time hiking or traveling through future settings for books, including the Colorado’s San Juan Mountains for "Sackett," Wyoming’s South Pass area for "Bendigo Shafter" and the Utah Canyon Lands for "Shalako."“He bragged, and so did a lot of his readers, that you could go to a very specific place in his novels and see where he had pointed out exactly what the place was like,” said Etulain.  For many, L’Amour’s books, are a way to escape everyday life and travel to what Etulain calls the “romantic old West”-- a kind of “Never Never Land.”  Did The Author Live In Oklahoma?  According to Beau L’Amour, Louis’ brother, Parker L’Amour, bought a property called Wymena Farm on Rural Route Two in Choctaw. The author and his parents lived there from 1931 to 1942, and L’Amour wrote a series of adventure short stories called “Yondering,” which was not published until 1980. Oklahoma County Assessor Larry Stein could not find proof in county records that anyone named L’Amour owned property near Choctaw. “We went back to the 1800s trying to find out,” Stein said.Louis L’Amour’s Census record from 1940 lists his home as “Cass, Oklahoma,” a township in Oklahoma County, but does not list an exact address.  “I guess we can just say...for the entire 720 square miles of Oklahoma County...Louis L’Amour lived here,” said Stein. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It’s produced by Claire Donnelly and this episode was edited by Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Special thanks this week to Sheldon Beach and Chad Denson. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

(Unknown)Western author Louis L’Amour is said to have lived in Choctaw, Oklahoma during the 1930s and 1940s. One listener wanted to know if the rumor is true, and, if so, where exactly was his home? “According to Choctaw lore, Louis L’Amour lived here for a time. Can you tell me where he lived?” emailed KGOU listener Jo, who lives in Choctaw. “No One Even Comes Close” Louis L’Amour was a prolific Western author. He wrote several hundred novels and short stories starting in the 1940s, such as “The Shadow Riders"and “To The Far Blue Mountains,” and some were adapted into movies. “No one even comes close, writing about the West, to the popularity of Louis L’Amour,” said Richard Etulain, a retired history professor specializing in the history and literature of the American West. L’Amour’s stories follow a typical pattern, according to Etulain. They usually feature three main character types--a hero, a villain and a heroine--and each chapter usually ends on a cliffhanger.   “Within the first two or three chapters, Louis L'Amour will have already clear in your mind which ones are the rascals and which ones are going to be the heroes,” said Etulain. Etulain says L’Amour’s stories are full of adventure, but he focused more on action than on character development. “They’re not cerebral books. We read them not so much for the ideas as for the actions that occur,” Etulain explained.  (Unknown)A Little BackgroundL’Amour was born in North Dakota in 1908. Financial troubles forced his family to move throughout the western United States starting in the mid 1920s.As an adult, L’Amour traveled widely and held a variety of jobs, from baling hay in New Mexico to working in the mines of Arizona, California and Nevada. He worked on a merchant ship that sailed to England, Japan, China, Egypt and Panama, among other places. And L’Amour had a sporadic career as a professional boxer. “Traveling around the country and working in various remote locations gave [L’Amour] an intimate first-hand knowledge of the territory and landscape where the majority if his stories would be set,” wrote Beau L’Amour, Louis’ son, on the Louis L’Amour <a href="http://www.louislamour.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">website</a>. L’Amour also spent time hiking or traveling through future settings for books, including the Colorado’s San Juan Mountains for "Sackett," Wyoming’s South Pass area for "Bendigo Shafter" and the Utah Canyon Lands for "Shalako."“He bragged, and so did a lot of his readers, that you could go to a very specific place in his novels and see where he had pointed out exactly what the place was like,” said Etulain. For many, L’Amour’s books, are a way to escape everyday life and travel to what Etulain calls the “romantic old West”-- a kind of “Never Never Land.” Did The Author Live In Oklahoma? According to Beau L’Amour, Louis’ brother, Parker L’Amour, bought a property called Wymena Farm on Rural Route Two in Choctaw. The author and his parents lived there from 1931 to 1942, and L’Amour wrote a series of adventure short stories called “Yondering,” which was not published until 1980. Oklahoma County Assessor Larry Stein could not find proof in county records that anyone named L’Amour owned property near Choctaw. “We went back to the 1800s trying to find out,” Stein said.Louis L’Amour’s Census record from 1940 lists his home as “Cass, Oklahoma,” a township in Oklahoma County, but does not list an exact address. “I guess we can just say...for the entire 720 square miles of Oklahoma County...Louis L’Amour lived here,” said Stein. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It’s produced by Claire Donnelly and this episode was edited by Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Special thanks this week to Sheldon Beach and Chad Denson. Email your questions about Oklahoma to <a href="mailto:curious@kgou.org">curious@kgou.org</a>. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: Did Louis L’Amour Live In Oklahoma?

(Dave Heaton, Oklahoma Publishing Company Photography Collection / Oklahoma Historical Society)Byron’s Liquor Warehouse in Oklahoma City has been around since the state legalized alcohol in 1959. Listener Adam Hicks heard the store had a machine gun turret on its roof in its early days. Hicks asked How Curious: Is this true? And if so, why did the business need a gun?  Byron’s Liquor Warehouse, named after its owner, Byron Gambulos, is one of the largest liquor stores in Oklahoma.  “Byron is a charmer,” said Blake Cody, Gambulos’ grandson and the store’s current general manager.  Gambulos grew up in Dallas, the son of Greek and German immigrants, where he worked in restaurants from a young age. An entrepreneur from the start, he reportedly opened his first hamburger stand when he was 10 years old.  Gambulos went to military school and then served in the Philippines during World War II. Eventually, he moved to Oklahoma City with his wife and worked at several different businesses, including a dress shop.  At the time, alcohol was illegal in Oklahoma.  The state entered the union dry in 1907 and stayed dry for more than two decades after Prohibition in the United States, which ran from 1920 to 1933.  In April 1959, Oklahomans voted to repeal prohibition, or “go wet,” and Byron Gambulos was involved in helping leaders prepare for the legal sale of alcohol.  “He had some state senators [and] congressmen approach him about setting up some mock retail stores to see what it would look like for retailers with liquor,” Cody said.  Gambulos set up a number of model liquor stores across Oklahoma City and residents could apply for licenses to operate them.  At one location, an applicant was forbidden from getting a license because he was a bootlegger, or had been involved in the illegal business of smuggling alcohol in the state, so Gambulos was offered the job.  Gambulos accepted and soon started selling liquor at a small store near the state capitol building. He moved to the store’s current location at 23rd and Broadway about two years later.  According to Blake Cody, the early days of legal alcohol in Oklahoma were chaotic.  “The system here was all over the place. You had wholesalers doing kind of what they wanted, you had retailers doing what they wanted,” he said.  Many retailers tried to fix market prices high for increased profits, but Gambulos refused.  “We came in with the cheapest liquor prices to the consumer of any state in the whole union,” Gambulos told KGOU’s Jacob McCleland in 2016.  According to Gambulos, Elvis Presley would send a truck to Oklahoma from Tennessee to buy beer from Byron’s.   (Al McLaughlin, Oklahoma Publishing Company Photography Collection / Oklahoma Historical Society) Other people in the liquor business, some with rumored mafia ties, were not happy with the competition. In 1963, a man came into his office at the liquor store.  “This guy drove up in a Thunderbird and came in with a briefcase and a blond lady,” Gambulos said.  “He said, ‘Would you like to sell out?’ And I said, ‘No. Why?’ And he opened up the briefcase and said, ‘It’s going to be a cash deal.’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m not for sale.’”  Gambulos and his family started receiving death threats. Someone threw a homemade bomb into Byron’s Liquor Warehouse, damaging a small section for the building. But, Blake Cody said his grandfather was open for business the next day.  “Tons of people came in to … see the bombing [damage], so he turned that into a PR move,” Cody said.  Gambulos reportedly sold $100,000 in liquor that day--his first six digit sales day ever.  When the store was bombed again a short while later, Gambulos decided he needed protection. He built a rectangular, reinforced wooden structure with windows cut out on each side--a kind of watchtower--and put it on the business’ roof.  Gambulos and his friends, including some off-duty cops and devoted employees, manned the tower at night, armed with pistols, shotguns or any available weapons. Gambulos had a machine gun from World War II.  Cody said the tower seemed to be an effective deterrent. Gambulos and his family gradually stopped receiving threats. Cody said one of Byron’s men thwarted at least one bombing attempt. “He was just hanging out, smoking his cigar. And he was sitting down so you couldn't see him,” Cody said.“He heard some noise and so when he popped up he saw a guy on the street setting a pipe bomb and getting ready to throw it. And so he started shooting at his feet and the guy dropped the pipe bomb, took off running, and the pipe bomb blew a huge hole in the concrete.” Oklahoma’s Alcoholic Beverage Laws Enforcement Commission officials asked Gambulos to take down the tower about a year after it was erected, and police reportedly caught some of the people who had been involved in bombing the liquor store.   (Joe Miller, Oklahoma Publishing Company Photography Collection / Oklahoma Historical Society)Adam Hicks, who asked How Curious the question, said he is fascinated by the way Byron Gambulos handled this potential setback.  “This is a man who was just trying to run a business,” Hicks said.  “That’s Oklahoma ingenuity.” How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly and edited by Jacob McCleland. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

(Dave Heaton, Oklahoma Publishing Company Photography Collection / Oklahoma Historical Society)Byron’s Liquor Warehouse in Oklahoma City has been around since the state legalized alcohol in 1959. Listener Adam Hicks heard the store had a machine gun turret on its roof in its early days. Hicks asked How Curious: Is this true? And if so, why did the business need a gun? Byron’s Liquor Warehouse, named after its owner, Byron Gambulos, is one of the largest liquor stores in Oklahoma. “Byron is a charmer,” said Blake Cody, Gambulos’ grandson and the store’s current general manager. Gambulos grew up in Dallas, the son of Greek and German immigrants, where he worked in restaurants from a young age. An entrepreneur from the start, he reportedly opened his first hamburger stand when he was 10 years old. Gambulos went to military school and then served in the Philippines during World War II. Eventually, he moved to Oklahoma City with his wife and worked at several different businesses, including a dress shop. At the time, alcohol was illegal in Oklahoma. The state <a href="http://www.kgou.org/post/born-sober-always-plentiful-how-oklahoma-got-its-liquor-laws" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">entered the union dry</a> in 1907 and stayed dry for more than two decades after Prohibition in the United States, which ran from 1920 to 1933. In April 1959, Oklahomans voted to repeal prohibition, or “go wet,” and Byron Gambulos was involved in helping leaders prepare for the legal sale of alcohol. “He had some state senators [and] congressmen approach him about setting up some mock retail stores to see what it would look like for retailers with liquor,” Cody said. Gambulos set up a number of model liquor stores across Oklahoma City and residents could apply for licenses to operate them. At one location, an applicant was forbidden from getting a license because he was a bootlegger, or had been involved in the illegal business of smuggling alcohol in the state, so Gambulos was offered the job. Gambulos accepted and soon started selling liquor at a small store near the state capitol building. He moved to the store’s <a href="https://www.facebook.com/byronsliquor/?rf=152715581434398" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">current location</a> at 23rd and Broadway about two years later. According to Blake Cody, the early days of legal alcohol in Oklahoma were chaotic. “The system here was all over the place. You had wholesalers doing kind of what they wanted, you had retailers doing what they wanted,” he said. Many retailers tried to fix market prices high for increased profits, but Gambulos refused. “We came in with the cheapest liquor prices to the consumer of any state in the whole union,” Gambulos <a href="http://www.kgou.org/post/born-sober-always-plentiful-how-oklahoma-got-its-liquor-laws" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">told KGOU’s Jacob McCleland in 2016</a>. According to Gambulos, Elvis Presley would send a truck to Oklahoma from Tennessee to buy beer from Byron’s.  (Al McLaughlin, Oklahoma Publishing Company Photography Collection / Oklahoma Historical Society) Other people in the liquor business, some with rumored mafia ties, were not happy with the competition. In 1963, a man came into his office at the liquor store. “This guy drove up in a Thunderbird and came in with a briefcase and a blond lady,” Gambulos said. “He said, ‘Would you like to sell out?’ And I said, ‘No. Why?’ And he opened up the briefcase and said, ‘It’s going to be a cash deal.’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m not for sale.’” Gambulos and his family started receiving death threats. Someone threw a homemade bomb into Byron’s Liquor Warehouse, damaging a small section for the building. But, Blake Cody said his grandfather was open for business the next day. “Tons of people came in to … see the bombing [damage], so he turned that into a PR move,” Cody said. Gambulos reportedly sold $100,000 in liquor that day--his first six digit sales day ever. When the store was bombed again a short while later, Gambulos decided he needed protection. He built a rectangular, reinforced wooden structure with windows cut out on each side--a kind of watchtower--and put it on the business’ roof. Gambulos and his friends, including some off-duty cops and devoted employees, manned the tower at night, armed with pistols, shotguns or any available weapons. Gambulos had a machine gun from World War II. Cody said the tower seemed to be an effective deterrent. Gambulos and his family gradually stopped receiving threats. Cody said one of Byron’s men thwarted at least one bombing attempt. “He was just hanging out, smoking his cigar. And he was sitting down so you couldn't see him,” Cody said.“He heard some noise and so when he popped up he saw a guy on the street setting a pipe bomb and getting ready to throw it. And so he started shooting at his feet and the guy dropped the pipe bomb, took off running, and the pipe bomb blew a huge hole in the concrete.” Oklahoma’s Alcoholic Beverage Laws Enforcement Commission officials asked Gambulos to take down the tower about a year after it was erected, and police reportedly caught some of the people who had been involved in bombing the liquor store.  (Joe Miller, Oklahoma Publishing Company Photography Collection / Oklahoma Historical Society)Adam Hicks, who asked How Curious the question, said he is fascinated by the way Byron Gambulos handled this potential setback. “This is a man who was just trying to run a business,” Hicks said. “That’s Oklahoma ingenuity.” How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly and edited by Jacob McCleland. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: A Machine Gun Turret On The Roof Of A Liquor Store?

KGOU listener Adam Cotton heard the famous “talking” horse’s final resting place is in the Sooner State. He asked How Curious: Is that true?“Hello, I’m Mister Ed,” said a horse, after nosing open a wooden barn door.  Thus began 143 episodes of the 1960s black and white television show "Mister Ed," about a talking palomino who only spoke to his owner, Wilbur Post.  The smart-mouthed Mister Ed, played by horse Bamboo Harvester and voiced by western movie star Allan Rocky Lane, had a host of madcap adventures over the series’ six seasons, from trying to become the first equine astronaut to hitting a homerun in the Los Angeles Dodgers’ stadium. “The Kind Of Guy A Horse Would Talk To”Alan Young played Wilbur Post. He was a well-known radio and TV comedian when “Mister Ed” was in the works at George Burns’ production company. Burns is said to have told his staff: “Get Alan Young. He looks like the kind of guy a horse would talk to.”“My dressing room was a couple of doors away from Mister Ed’s very large dressing room,” Young wrote in his 2007 book, Mister Ed and Me and More! Young said he and Ed greeted each other every morning at the studio. According to Young, show staff threaded soft nylon under the horse’s lip and along his bridle to make it look like he was talking. “The second year, we could hardly stop him from talking. As soon as he heard my voice stop, his lips would start to go,” he told the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences in 2001. Dead Eds Just off Highway 82, about five miles north of Tahlequah, there is a gravestone that reads, “According to national media reports, Mr. Ed moved to Oklahoma in the late 1960s after a successful Hollywood career. Mr. Ed continued to entertain and bring joy to many Oklahomans. Finally retiring in this very field, Mr. Ed passed away February 22, 1979.” About 200 people reportedly came to a 1990 unveiling of the Mister Ed monument, a five foot tall granite marker with an engraving of the horse’s head peering through a barn door. The stone sits in a grassy patch of private property, then owned by Danny and Darlene Snodgrass.  (Claire Donnelly / KGOU)Kin Thompson, who teaches hospitality and tourism management at Northeastern State University, said he was excited when he moved to Tahlequah in 1991 and heard Mister Ed was buried there. “I had fun with friends saying we could go off the old Deadheads, the Grateful Dead fans, and we could make shirts that said ‘Dead Eds,’” Thompson said. The Mister Ed marker continues to be a destination for fans and travelers. It’s featured on Atlas Obscura, Roadside America and Travel OK. Gena McPhail, tourism director for the Tahlequah Chamber of Commerce, said her office still receives regular calls about the site. “It’s an old show. I was really surprised how many people were drawn to this,” McPhail said. A Horse Of A Different Color Young wrote about Mister Ed’s death in his book. According to him, Bamboo Harvester moved with his trainer, Lester Hilton, to a tiny house with a small backyard, paddock and barn on Sparks Street in Burbank, California after the show ended. Then Hilton went to visit relatives in Oklahoma around 1970, leaving Ed with a temporary wrangler. “No one is quite sure what happened exactly, but it would appear Ed had decided to lie down or perhaps take a roll in the grass, which was not his usual routine,” Young wrote. “He was a heavy-bodied horse with slender legs, not always strong enough to get himself back on all fours without a lot of flailing and struggling.” The wrangler gave Ed a tranquilizer, thinking the horse was having a seizure. Mister Ed died within hours and was cremated in Los Angeles. Young wrote only Hilton knew where the ashes were scattered. According to Kin Thompson and Gena McPhail, the Tahlequah headstone actually marks the grave of Pumpkin, a Mister Ed body double who reportedly died in 1979. One website said Pumpkin looked very much like Ed, except for a gold spot in the middle of his white blaze, which was supposedly covered with white makeup for shoots. Alan Young appeared to confirm this story, writing that the show’s production company used a different horse for publicity photo shoots in 1960, though he didn’t give the horse’s name. Thompson said he enjoys seeing the Mister Ed marker on his commute, even if it isn’t the original horse. “It’s still exciting. It’s still fun. We have a celebrity lookalike buried in Tahlequah,” he said. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It’s produced by Claire Donnelly and this episode was edited by Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

KGOU listener Adam Cotton heard the famous “talking” horse’s final resting place is in the Sooner State. He asked How Curious: Is that true?“Hello, I’m Mister Ed,” said a horse, after nosing open a wooden barn door. Thus <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GAbc5uQXJo&amp;t=10s" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">began</a> 143 episodes of the 1960s black and white television show "Mister Ed," about a talking palomino who only spoke to his owner, Wilbur Post. The smart-mouthed Mister Ed, played by horse <a href="https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bamboo+harvester" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Bamboo Harvester</a> and voiced by western movie star Allan Rocky Lane, had a host of madcap adventures over the series’ six seasons, from trying to become the first equine astronaut to hitting a homerun in the Los Angeles Dodgers’ <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlVr45CHOuA" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">stadium</a>. “The Kind Of Guy A Horse Would Talk To”Alan Young played Wilbur Post. He was a well-known radio and TV comedian when “Mister Ed” was in the works at George Burns’ production company. Burns is said to have told his staff: “Get Alan Young. He looks like the kind of guy a horse would talk to.”“My dressing room was a couple of doors away from Mister Ed’s very large dressing room,” Young wrote in his 2007 <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Mister-Ed-More-Alan-Young/dp/0979740401" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">book</a>, Mister Ed and Me and More! Young said he and Ed greeted each other every morning at the studio. According to Young, show staff threaded soft nylon under the horse’s lip and along his bridle to make it look like he was talking. “The second year, we could hardly stop him from talking. As soon as he heard my voice stop, his lips would start to go,” he <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFg59PtQjUE&amp;t=4s" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">told</a> the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences in 2001. Dead Eds Just off Highway 82, about five miles north of Tahlequah, there is a gravestone that reads, “According to national media reports, Mr. Ed moved to Oklahoma in the late 1960s after a successful Hollywood career. Mr. Ed continued to entertain and bring joy to many Oklahomans. Finally retiring in this very field, Mr. Ed passed away February 22, 1979.” About 200 people <a href="https://newsok.com/article/2329147/200-attend-unveiling-of-mr-eds-monument" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">reportedly</a> came to a 1990 unveiling of the Mister Ed monument, a five foot tall granite marker with an engraving of the horse’s head peering through a barn door. The stone sits in a grassy patch of private property, then owned by Danny and Darlene Snodgrass.  (Claire Donnelly / KGOU)Kin Thompson, who teaches hospitality and tourism management at Northeastern State University, said he was excited when he moved to Tahlequah in 1991 and heard Mister Ed was buried there. “I had fun with friends saying we could go off the old Deadheads, the Grateful Dead fans, and we could make shirts that said ‘Dead Eds,’” Thompson said. The Mister Ed marker continues to be a destination for fans and travelers. It’s featured on <a href="https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/mister-eds-grave" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Atlas Obscura</a>, <a href="https://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/1828" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Roadside America</a> and <a href="https://www.travelok.com/listings/view.profile/id.22825" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Travel OK</a>. Gena McPhail, tourism director for the Tahlequah Chamber of Commerce, said her office still receives regular calls about the site. “It’s an old show. I was really surprised how many people were drawn to this,” McPhail said. A Horse Of A Different Color Young wrote about Mister Ed’s death in his book. According to him, Bamboo Harvester moved with his trainer, Lester Hilton, to a tiny house with a small backyard, paddock and barn on Sparks Street in Burbank, California after the show ended. Then Hilton went to visit relatives in Oklahoma around 1970, leaving Ed with a temporary wrangler. “No one is quite sure what happened exactly, but it would appear Ed had decided to lie down or perhaps take a roll in the grass, which was not his usual routine,” Young wrote. “He was a heavy-bodied horse with slender legs, not always strong enough to get himself back on all fours without a lot of flailing and struggling.” The wrangler gave Ed a tranquilizer, thinking the horse was having a seizure. Mister Ed died within hours and was cremated in Los Angeles. Young wrote only Hilton knew where the ashes were scattered. According to Kin Thompson and Gena McPhail, the Tahlequah headstone actually marks the grave of Pumpkin, a Mister Ed body double who reportedly died in 1979. One <a href="https://www.manesandtailsorganization.org/Mr_Ed.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">website</a> said Pumpkin looked very much like Ed, except for a gold spot in the middle of his white blaze, which was supposedly covered with white makeup for shoots. Alan Young appeared to confirm this story, writing that the show’s production company used a different horse for publicity photo shoots in 1960, though he didn’t give the horse’s name. Thompson said he enjoys seeing the Mister Ed marker on his commute, even if it isn’t the original horse. “It’s still exciting. It’s still fun. We have a celebrity lookalike buried in Tahlequah,” he said. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It’s produced by Claire Donnelly and this episode was edited by Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

How Curious: Is Mister Ed Buried In Oklahoma?

For years, people have seen a mysterious light appear and disappear on a road in far northeastern Oklahoma. KGOU listener Lora Nall asked How Curious: What is this light? And where's it coming from?FULL  TRANSCRIPT:Claire Donnelly: In a video, a group of guys is sitting in a car on the side of a road known as the Devil's Promenade. They're in the far northeastern corner of Oklahoma, right on the Missouri border. They're looking at something low in the sky.There are dozens of videos like this on YouTube. People looking for and recording a mysterious light called the Spooklight. This is How Curious from KGOU, exploring your questions about the state we call home. I'm Claire Donnelly.The best way to see the Spooklight is on E50 Road in Quapaw, Oklahoma, also known as Spooklight Road or The Devil's Promenade. Lora Nall grew up near that area, in Miami, and brought the topic to How Curious. She saw it for the first time when she was in her early twenties.Lora Nall: You're told to park your car on the side of the road and turn it off and turn out all your lights and stay quiet. It starts to just sort of float. Sometimes it looks like it's floating towards you, just this ball of light.Donnelly: There are lots of theories about what causes the Spooklight. In one, it's the spirits of two young Quapaw lovers. According to the story, two tribal members fell in love but were forbidden from getting married so they ran away together. But then a pack of warriors chased them. So to avoid getting caught, the couple held hands and jumped into the Spring River, killing themselves. Another story says the Spooklight is the ghost of a miner carrying a lantern.Nall: So there are quite a few different stories out there but I have never heard anything definitive.Donnelly: Some say the phenomenon has been around since the late 1800s, but the first reported documentation of the light is in a 1935 newspaper. The Army Corps of Engineers supposedly investigated the Spooklight in 1946 and couldn't find an explanation.A local TV station broadcast footage of the light in 2012.Donnelly: For a long time, there was a Spooklight museum on Spooklight Road where visitors could look at the light through a telescope. Reports say it was run by a guy named Arthur "Spooky" Meadows and then by Garland "Spooky" Middleton. The museum walls were reportedly covered in articles about Spooklight sightings and theories. Lora Nall says she's always wondered about the light.Nall: There has to be an explanation. I just don't know what it is.Allen Rice: I thought that it might be swamp gas.Donnelly: Allen Rice is an English professor at the University of Central Oklahoma. He and a group of his family members and friends try to solve unusual mysteries. They call themselves "The Boomers."Rice: Our last, three exp--four expeditions were looking for Forrest Fenn's hidden treasure in the Rocky Mountains. We've gone three times looking for the Loch Ness monster, we've been to Roswell...Donnelly: A few years ago, they went to the Devil's Promenade. Rice says they weren't really expecting to see anything. But they did.Rice: You're looking straight down a road to the west and it looks like at the top of the road is this sort of glowing basketball. And we're like, "what the monkey?!" And we were shocked and we were, you know, we're really seeing this. Is this happening? We kept saying, "What is happening? What is happening?"Donnelly: They wanted to figure out where it was coming from. So they tried to get as close to it as they could.Rice: We get in the car and we drive forward and we slam into this giant forest. So the Spooklight Road, if you go west, it dead ends into a forest.Donnelly: Rice says on the other side of the forest is another road that also dead ends into the trees. And the two roads line up.Rice: So I said, "I think what's happening is cars are coming down--if you keep going that way, it's a highway--I think they're coming down the long highway and we're seeing headlights five miles away. Or tail lights."Donnelly: The Boomers tested this theory with an unscientific experiment which they documented in a YouTube video.Rice and one group took a car to Spooklight Road and parked in the best possible viewing place. Another group drove to the road on the other side of the forest. That group flashed their headlights. Rice says he soon started seeing the Spook Light. They'd ask for it to be brighter, the guy in the other car would turn on his brights and the Spook Light would get brighter. They'd ask for it to be red, the guy in the other car would put red filters over his headlights.Rice: Everyone on YouTube hates our guts.Donnelly: Here are a few of the video comments-- and I'm quoting: "You, sir, aren't very smart." "This is the absolute worst explanation ever!" "What a load of total bull."Rice says the experiment wasn't perfect but the results make sense. And in 1965 the magazine "Popular Mechanics" looked into the Spooklight and came up with basically the same explanation.Rice: You could literally go to where we want you to go, take your binoculars. During the day, you can see the cars where the Spooklight is supposed to be emanating from.Donnelly: But what about people who claim to have seen the light before cars existed? Rice says he's not sure it did exist before cars because it's not well documented. But if it did he says it could have been created by campfires or torches causing a similar effect.So yes, the internet can be a terrible and mean place. But Rice says he thinks there's another reason people were so upset with the Boomers' mundane explanation.Rice: We all want awesome. I mean, we all want to see a dimension to another world. You know, I mean when you go to Loch Ness, you're looking in the water because you want Nessie to be there.Donnelly: Maybe some mysteries are meant to be left unsolved. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly and edited by Jacob McCleland. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

For years, people have seen a mysterious light appear and disappear on a road in far northeastern Oklahoma. KGOU listener Lora Nall asked How Curious: What is this light? And where's it coming from?FULL  TRANSCRIPT:Claire Donnelly: In a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7VG72cSNoA&amp;t=686s" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">video</a>, a group of guys is sitting in a car on the side of a road known as the Devil's Promenade. They're in the far northeastern corner of Oklahoma, right on the Missouri border. They're looking at something low in the sky.There are dozens of videos like this on YouTube. People looking for and recording a mysterious light called the Spooklight. This is How Curious from KGOU, exploring your questions about the state we call home. I'm Claire Donnelly.The best way to see the Spooklight is on E50 Road in Quapaw, Oklahoma, also known as Spooklight Road or The Devil's Promenade. Lora Nall grew up near that area, in Miami, and brought the topic to How Curious. She saw it for the first time when she was in her early twenties.Lora Nall: You're told to park your car on the side of the road and turn it off and turn out all your lights and stay quiet. It starts to just sort of float. Sometimes it looks like it's floating towards you, just this ball of light.Donnelly: There are lots of theories about what causes the Spooklight. In one, it's the spirits of two young Quapaw lovers. According to the story, two tribal members fell in love but were forbidden from getting married so they ran away together. But then a pack of warriors chased them. So to avoid getting caught, the couple held hands and jumped into the Spring River, killing themselves. Another story says the Spooklight is the ghost of a miner carrying a lantern.Nall: So there are quite a few different stories out there but I have never heard anything definitive.Donnelly: Some say the phenomenon has been around since the late 1800s, but the first reported documentation of the light is in a 1935 newspaper. The Army Corps of Engineers supposedly investigated the Spooklight in 1946 and couldn't find an explanation.A local TV station broadcast <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXqhDgo-rc&amp;t=1s" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">footage</a> of the light in 2012.Donnelly: For a long time, there was a Spooklight museum on Spooklight Road where visitors could look at the light through a telescope. Reports say it was run by a guy named Arthur "Spooky" Meadows and then by Garland "Spooky" Middleton. The museum walls were reportedly covered in articles about Spooklight sightings and theories. Lora Nall says she's always wondered about the light.Nall: There has to be an explanation. I just don't know what it is.Allen Rice: I thought that it might be swamp gas.Donnelly: Allen Rice is an English professor at the University of Central Oklahoma. He and a group of his family members and friends try to solve unusual mysteries. They call themselves "The Boomers."Rice: Our last, three exp--four expeditions were looking for Forrest Fenn's hidden treasure in the Rocky Mountains. We've gone three times looking for the Loch Ness monster, we've been to Roswell...Donnelly: A few years ago, they went to the Devil's Promenade. Rice says they weren't really expecting to see anything. But they did.Rice: You're looking straight down a road to the west and it looks like at the top of the road is this sort of glowing basketball. And we're like, "what the monkey?!" And we were shocked and we were, you know, we're really seeing this. Is this happening? We kept saying, "What is happening? What is happening?"Donnelly: They wanted to figure out where it was coming from. So they tried to get as close to it as they could.Rice: We get in the car and we drive forward and we slam into this giant forest. So the Spooklight Road, if you go west, it dead ends into a forest.Donnelly: Rice says on the other side of the forest is another road that also dead ends into the trees. And the two roads line up.Rice: So I said, "I think what's happening is cars are coming down--if you keep going that way, it's a highway--I think they're coming down the long highway and we're seeing headlights five miles away. Or tail lights."Donnelly: The Boomers tested this theory with an unscientific experiment which they documented in a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwzfXa9Tsls" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">YouTube video</a>.Rice and one group took a car to Spooklight Road and parked in the best possible viewing place. Another group drove to the road on the other side of the forest. That group flashed their headlights. Rice says he soon started seeing the Spook Light. They'd ask for it to be brighter, the guy in the other car would turn on his brights and the Spook Light would get brighter. They'd ask for it to be red, the guy in the other car would put red filters over his headlights.Rice: Everyone on YouTube hates our guts.Donnelly: Here are a few of the video comments-- and I'm quoting: "You, sir, aren't very smart." "This is the absolute worst explanation ever!" "What a load of total bull."Rice says the experiment wasn't perfect but the results make sense. And in 1965 the magazine <a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=BOMDAAAAMBAJ&amp;pg=PA116&amp;lpg=PA116&amp;dq=September+1965:+Popular+Mechanics+Hornet+Light+Robert+Gannon&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=NsBZxxT9lW&amp;sig=yNA5cT8bHK-mXtXdzWWTwLcjqh8&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwi91r2u94jeAhUIeawKHa-rB5QQ6AEwBnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Popular Mechanics"</a> looked into the Spooklight and came up with basically the same explanation.Rice: You could literally go to where we want you to go, take your binoculars. During the day, you can see the cars where the Spooklight is supposed to be emanating from.Donnelly: But what about people who claim to have seen the light before cars existed? Rice says he's not sure it did exist before cars because it's not well documented. But if it did he says it could have been created by campfires or torches causing a similar effect.So yes, the internet can be a terrible and mean place. But Rice says he thinks there's another reason people were so upset with the Boomers' mundane explanation.Rice: We all want awesome. I mean, we all want to see a dimension to another world. You know, I mean when you go to Loch Ness, you're looking in the water because you want Nessie to be there.Donnelly: Maybe some mysteries are meant to be left unsolved. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly and edited by Jacob McCleland. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: What Is The Spooklight?

One night when Caleb Germany was in high school, he and some friends drove from Oklahoma City to Guthrie to see an abandoned building they had heard was a haunted orphanage. Germany asked How Curious: What’s the history of the building? Is it haunted? When Germany visited the building for the first time with five or six friends, he said it was huge, dilapidated and illuminated by one eerie yellow light that made every shadow seem menacing. “It felt like, ‘hey, if I were a ghost, this is where I’d be hanging out,’” Germany said.  He and a friend made it to the front door of the building before bolting in fear after hearing a noise inside. Germany visited the place with friends several more times during his high school and college years but never ventured inside.  Several legends offer explanations for the rumored orphanage ghosts.  In one, a deranged priest killed children and buried them under the building to keep their souls on the premises. In another, a cruel headmistress at the orphanage beat children to death. The abuse upset one member of the staff so greatly, they committed suicide in the building's bell tower.  “They say at midnight, if you’re up in the tower and wait and watch, you can see this shadowy figure fall down and hang by the neck,” said Jeff Provine, author and co-author of several books, including Haunted Guthrie and Haunted Norman. The property, at 602 E. College Ave. in Guthrie, is the former Masonic Children’s Home, built by the Freemasons in the 1920s. More than 100 children reportedly lived there in its early days. The facility included a large gym and an indoor swimming pool. “That February day in 1930, when I arrived at the mansion and got to know my hundred and thirty or forty new brothers and sisters, my extended family was born,” wrote Vonia Robertson Gough, a former resident, in a memory book published by the Oklahoma Masons in 1995. “We all had plenty to eat, nice clothes and caring people to look after us,” Gough added.  The book does not mention severe punishments or harsh teachers, though negative reports likely would not be included in a publication sponsored by the Masons.  According to the Oklahoma History Center, the number of children living at the home dwindled in the 1970s before it ultimately closed in 1977.  The tales Caleb Germany and Jeff Provine heard about the building are among dozens of scary legends involving children’s homes and orphanages.  Peter Bradshaw, film critic for The Guardian, wrote “our profound yet unacknowledged fear of children” is a “great theme” of the horror movie genre.  “We are afraid of their vulnerability, which is our vulnerability,” Bradshaw wrote. Other theories argue child characters are normally portrayed as harmless, so viewers find films that alter that portrayal disturbing. Ghost stories are often rooted in truth, and many horrific things have happened to children. Recently, some former residents of a now-closed Catholic orphanage in Vermont accused staff of beating and sexually abusing children. Some of those orphanage residents died. The former children’s home in Guthrie is now Dominion House, an events center and hotel operated by Julie and Trey Ayers. The old children’s dormitories have been converted into hotel rooms and the former cafeteria is now a grand ballroom.  A handful of event attendees have reported seeing and hearing unusual things.  Jeff Provine said some claim to have seen a little boy running around and others have reportedly heard children laughing. No one has mentioned seeing the shadowy figure in the bell tower. “It’s been very positive,” Provine said. “In fact, one person told me it’s good luck if you have your event there and one of the kid ghosts shows up.” But Julie Ayers, Dominion House director, said she has spent many late nights on the property and has never seen anything supernatural. “I always say I’d be much happier if I had a story,” Ayers said, laughing. “We had a lady...make a comment [online]...that the bathroom was ‘unseasonably cold.’ What she doesn’t know is I have an air conditioner that just solely feeds that bathroom,” she added.  Provine said legends and rumors about the building, like the ones How Curious questioner Caleb Germany heard in high school, will likely continue.  “An abandoned mansion there on the edge of town--that’s urban legend fodder right there,” Provine said.How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly and edited by Jacob McCleland. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

One night when Caleb Germany was in high school, he and some friends drove from Oklahoma City to Guthrie to see an abandoned building they had heard was a haunted orphanage. Germany asked How Curious: What’s the history of the building? Is it haunted? When Germany visited the building for the first time with five or six friends, he said it was huge, dilapidated and illuminated by one eerie yellow light that made every shadow seem menacing. “It felt like, ‘hey, if I were a ghost, this is where I’d be hanging out,’” Germany said. He and a friend made it to the front door of the building before bolting in fear after hearing a noise inside. Germany visited the place with friends several more times during his high school and college years but never ventured inside. Several legends offer explanations for the rumored orphanage ghosts. In one, a deranged priest killed children and buried them under the building to keep their souls on the premises. In another, a cruel headmistress at the orphanage beat children to death. The abuse upset one member of the staff so greatly, they committed suicide in the building's bell tower. “They say at midnight, if you’re up in the tower and wait and watch, you can see this shadowy figure fall down and hang by the neck,” said Jeff Provine, author and co-author of several books, including Haunted Guthrie and Haunted Norman. The property, at 602 E. College Ave. in Guthrie, is the former Masonic Children’s Home, built by the Freemasons in the 1920s. More than 100 children reportedly lived there in its early days. The facility included a large gym and an indoor swimming pool. “That February day in 1930, when I arrived at the mansion and got to know my hundred and thirty or forty new brothers and sisters, my extended family was born,” wrote Vonia Robertson Gough, a former resident, in a memory book published by the Oklahoma Masons in 1995. “We all had plenty to eat, nice clothes and caring people to look after us,” Gough added. The book does not mention severe punishments or harsh teachers, though negative reports likely would not be included in a publication sponsored by the Masons. According to the <a href="http://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=FR007" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Oklahoma History Center</a>, the number of children living at the home dwindled in the 1970s before it ultimately closed in 1977. The tales Caleb Germany and Jeff Provine heard about the building are among <a href="https://www.imdb.com/list/ls005787544/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">dozens</a> of scary legends involving children’s homes and orphanages. Peter Bradshaw, film critic for The Guardian, <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/film/2008/mar/21/worldcinema.horror" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">wrote</a> “our profound yet unacknowledged fear of children” is a “great theme” of the horror movie genre. “We are afraid of their vulnerability, which is our vulnerability,” Bradshaw wrote. Other theories argue child characters are normally portrayed as harmless, so viewers find films that alter that portrayal disturbing. Ghost stories are often rooted in truth, and many horrific things have happened to children. Recently, some former residents of a now-closed Catholic orphanage in Vermont <a href="https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christinekenneally/orphanage-death-catholic-abuse-nuns-st-josephs" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">accused staff</a> of beating and sexually abusing children. Some of those orphanage residents died. The former children’s home in Guthrie is now <a href="http://www.dominionhouseguthrie.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Dominion House</a>, an events center and hotel operated by Julie and Trey Ayers. The old children’s dormitories have been converted into hotel rooms and the former cafeteria is now a grand ballroom. A handful of event attendees have reported seeing and hearing unusual things. Jeff Provine said some claim to have seen a little boy running around and others have reportedly heard children laughing. No one has mentioned seeing the shadowy figure in the bell tower. “It’s been very positive,” Provine said. “In fact, one person told me it’s good luck if you have your event there and one of the kid ghosts shows up.” But Julie Ayers, Dominion House director, said she has spent many late nights on the property and has never seen anything supernatural. “I always say I’d be much happier if I had a story,” Ayers said, laughing. “We had a lady...make a comment [online]...that the bathroom was ‘unseasonably cold.’ What she doesn’t know is I have an air conditioner that just solely feeds that bathroom,” she added. Provine said legends and rumors about the building, like the ones How Curious questioner Caleb Germany heard in high school, will likely continue. “An abandoned mansion there on the edge of town--that’s urban legend fodder right there,” Provine said.How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly and edited by Jacob McCleland. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: A Haunted Children's Home?

(Oklahoma Historical Society)A Kansas reporter wrote in 1893 he had discovered an all-female town in Oklahoma. But when he tried to go back to the village one week later, it was gone.  KGOU listener Bart Varner asked How Curious: What happened?  Claire Donnelly: In 1893, a reporter from Kansas rode his horse into Oklahoma. About halfway between the cities of Perry and Enid, he stumbled upon a little village. According to the reporter, the prairie town was called Bathsheba and it was made up entirely of women. He went home to Kansas and wrote a story about the town.Then, a week later, his editor sent him back to Oklahoma for more information. So the reporter rode to the same spot--but Bathsheba was gone. KGOU listener Bart Varner came across this story while reading about Oklahoma ghost towns and he asked How Curious about it.Bart Varner: I'm dying to know what happened and how this is not already a Netflix special.Donnelly: This is How Curious from KGOU, exploring your questions about Oklahoma. I'm Claire Donnelly. Bart Varner was immediately intrigued by the Bathsheba story.Varner: I am picturing a charismatic, angry woman, jilted and slighted by society, who rallies her friends to leave their lives and set up this grand women's communist village in the middle of Oklahoma which fails immediately.Donnelly: In fact, there is a woman whose name comes up in some of the stories about this mysterious town. Her name was Kentucky Daisy.Anna Studstill: So Kentucky Daisy was a woman who came to Edmond during the 1889 Land Run.Donnelly: This is Anna Studstill. She works at the Edmond Historical Society and Museum. The Land Run of 1889 was when the U.S. government opened up the so-called "Unassigned Lands" for settlement. Native American tribes had previously been forced off that same land. A settler could claim 160 acres in the region under the 1862 Homestead Act.Thousands of people jumped at this opportunity, including some single women, because it was a way they could own land without getting married. Kentucky Daisy was one of these women. Her real name was Nannitta Daisy. But sometimes newspaper stories call her Annette Daisy or Annetta Daisy. Historians say she left Kentucky and came out west, hence the nickname.Studstill: She was a reporter for the Dallas Morning News. She actually came here to report on the land run, convinced her editor to let her do a story, and then decided to participate in the land run.Donnelly: Studstill says Kentucky Daisy didn't claim her land riding a horse or a wagon.Studstill: From what we know, she convinced the train operator on the train that she was on to slow down a little bit. She leapt from the car, staked her claim and then came back and hopped back on the car.Donnelly: As time went on, the story of Kentucky Daisy grew and grew.Studstill: By the time she dies, the newspapers report that she leapt off the cow catcher, the very front of like, the fast moving--you know, a full speed train.Donnelly: So Kentucky Daisy became a kind of legend--a force to be reckoned with. There's actually a statue of her jumping off the train cow catcher at the Edmond farmer's market.Studstill: And she was definitely an organizer. Like, she ran for state librarian of Kentucky. Like, she did all these things. I think she spoke at political conventions and was kind of an activist personality.Donnelly: There were several land runs in Oklahoma--not just the 1889 one. The government opened up more territory to settlers while displacing Native Americans. Kentucky Daisy participated in four land runs.Studstill: She was hitting them back to back to back.Derek Lee: So this is the New York Times from Saturday, April 16, 1892.Donnelly: This is Derek Lee reading from a newspaper article. He also works at the Edmond museum.Lee: "Annetta Daisy's Amazons: Venturesome Young Women in Oklahoma. Twelve of them are encamped in a hiding place within the borders. The irrepressible Annetta Daisy, who has passed through two campaigns similar to this, again comes to the front in a new role."Donnelly: The article says Kentucky Daisy and 11 other women snuck onto some land before it was officially opened to settlers, hoping to beat other people to a good claim. They hid from the authorities but eventually got caught and had to go back to the border.So women were definitely involved in Oklahoma land runs. But did a group of them really start a town called Bathsheba?Diana Simon: So these women just set up this town, from what we gather.Donnelly: Diana Simon runs the Cherokee Strip Museum in Perry. She and I are standing in a field in Noble County, not far from where Bathsheba supposedly sprang into existence in September 1893.Simon: And they say that it is located somewhere in Garfield County. And that's between Enid, which is Garfield County, and Perry, which is Noble County. And it also described it as a three hour horse ride to Stillwater.Donnelly: Highway 64 is a few hundred yards away but when we turn our backs to it, dry grass stretches out in every direction. It's not hard to imagine a tiny town popping up in a place just like this. Remember the Kansas reporter who wrote about finding Bathsheba? I couldn't find his article, but I did find quotes from it in a 1961 Oklahoman piece called "The Town Without Men" by Robert Cunningham.The article says the women started the town a few days after Oklahoma's fourth and largest land run in the Cherokee Strip or Cherokee Outlet. That was a big rectangle of land in the Northwest that originally belonged to the Cherokee tribe. The newspaper says 33 women originally lived in Bathsheba.Simon: "It was a town of women where male horses, male chickens, male hogs were excluded, along with the males of their own species."Donnelly: Twelve of the women reportedly left the town after the first week and one was expelled for having a razor--a so-called "masculine implement."On his second trip to the town, the Kansas reporter writes he saw a group of about two dozen women wearing long dark dresses staring at him. Then a woman allegedly fired a shotgun in his direction.Unfortunately, this story is the only proof we have of Bathsheba's existence, and it's not exactly reliable. The late Douglas Werden calls it fictional and derogatory. Werden was a professor at West Texas A&amp;M University. He wrote an article called "Stereotypes, Lies and Crass Humor: When Men Write About Women in Oklahoma Land Runs." Werden writes "by creating such radically anti male characters, the authors both mock the women and construct them as an enemy."He says there are lots of clues the town is made up, including its name. You might recognize Bathsheba if you're familiar with the Bible.Lisa Wolfe: In English we usually say "bath-SHEE-buh," but the Hebrew would sound more like "baht-SHAY-vuh."Donnelly: Lisa Wolfe teaches Hebrew Bible at Oklahoma City University.Wolfe: She's not exactly your strongest female figure in the Bible. So we meet her in 2 Samuel 11.Donnelly: The chapter starts out, "when the kings went out to war in the spring of the year, King David was at home."Wolfe: And he was walking on his palace roof garden and he sees this woman bathing. And he sends his--he asks who this is and he sends his servants to go--the Hebrew just says "take her." Most translations say "go and get her," "bring her to me," or something like that. And we don't know anything about how Bathsheba feels about that.Donnelly: King David and Bathsheba sleep together, even though Bathsheba is married to someone else. Wolfe says there's no way there was opportunity for consent. And Bathsheba only has one line in this story: "I am pregnant." Wolfe says this makes Bathsheba a potentially tragic character. Later in the Bible, Bathsheba marries King David and gives birth to Solomon. She helps Solomon become king after David. So Bathsheba's identity is almost entirely tied to male figures, which Wolfe says doesn't quite fit with the independent spirit of this rumored town.Wolfe: I feel like if I were a woman who wanted to start a community of women and name it after a biblical woman, I would pick Ruth or Naomi, maybe.Donnelly: The late Professor Werden writes it's much more likely the men who created the fictional story about Bathsheba chose the name. He says it would let them sexualize and fantasize about conquering an entire community of females. Back in Noble County, Diana Simon says she enjoys imagining the town even though it might be made up.Simon: Well I guess I hope it's real because I think that even way back then, women felt like individuals. They weren't just a wife. And I would hope that that's where the spirit came from.Donnelly: Simon says she's inspired thinking about strong independent women like Kentucky Daisy participating in land runs and starting their own town.Simon: They must have been some kind of rebels. But I probably would've been right there with 'em, I don't know. I'm kind of a rebel, you know, I like to go off the beaten path a little bit. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly and edited by Jacob McCleland. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

(Oklahoma Historical Society)A Kansas reporter wrote in 1893 he had discovered an all-female town in Oklahoma. But when he tried to go back to the village one week later, it was gone.  KGOU listener Bart Varner asked How Curious: What happened?  Claire Donnelly: In 1893, a reporter from Kansas rode his horse into Oklahoma. About halfway between the cities of Perry and Enid, he stumbled upon a little village. According to the reporter, the prairie town was called Bathsheba and it was made up entirely of women. He went home to Kansas and wrote a story about the town.Then, a week later, his editor sent him back to Oklahoma for more information. So the reporter rode to the same spot--but Bathsheba was gone. KGOU listener Bart Varner came across this story while reading about Oklahoma ghost towns and he asked How Curious about it.Bart Varner: I'm dying to know what happened and how this is not already a Netflix special.Donnelly: This is How Curious from KGOU, exploring your questions about Oklahoma. I'm Claire Donnelly. Bart Varner was immediately intrigued by the Bathsheba story.Varner: I am picturing a charismatic, angry woman, jilted and slighted by society, who rallies her friends to leave their lives and set up this grand women's communist village in the middle of Oklahoma which fails immediately.Donnelly: In fact, there is a woman whose name comes up in some of the stories about this mysterious town. Her name was Kentucky Daisy.Anna Studstill: So Kentucky Daisy was a woman who came to Edmond during the 1889 Land Run.Donnelly: This is Anna Studstill. She works at the Edmond Historical Society and Museum. The Land Run of 1889 was when the U.S. government opened up the so-called "Unassigned Lands" for settlement. Native American tribes had previously been forced off that same land. A settler could claim 160 acres in the region under the 1862 Homestead Act.Thousands of people jumped at this opportunity, including some single women, because it was a way they could own land without getting married. Kentucky Daisy was one of these women. Her real name was Nannitta Daisy. But sometimes newspaper stories call her Annette Daisy or Annetta Daisy. Historians say she left Kentucky and came out west, hence the nickname.Studstill: She was a reporter for the Dallas Morning News. She actually came here to report on the land run, convinced her editor to let her do a story, and then decided to participate in the land run.Donnelly: Studstill says Kentucky Daisy didn't claim her land riding a horse or a wagon.Studstill: From what we know, she convinced the train operator on the train that she was on to slow down a little bit. She leapt from the car, staked her claim and then came back and hopped back on the car.Donnelly: As time went on, the story of Kentucky Daisy grew and grew.Studstill: By the time she dies, the newspapers report that she leapt off the cow catcher, the very front of like, the fast moving--you know, a full speed train.Donnelly: So Kentucky Daisy became a kind of legend--a force to be reckoned with. There's actually a statue of her jumping off the train cow catcher at the Edmond farmer's market.Studstill: And she was definitely an organizer. Like, she ran for state librarian of Kentucky. Like, she did all these things. I think she spoke at political conventions and was kind of an activist personality.Donnelly: There were several land runs in Oklahoma--not just the 1889 one. The government opened up more territory to settlers while displacing Native Americans. Kentucky Daisy participated in four land runs.Studstill: She was hitting them back to back to back.Derek Lee: So this is the New York Times from Saturday, April 16, 1892.Donnelly: This is Derek Lee reading from a newspaper article. He also works at the Edmond museum.Lee: "Annetta Daisy's Amazons: Venturesome Young Women in Oklahoma. Twelve of them are encamped in a hiding place within the borders. The irrepressible Annetta Daisy, who has passed through two campaigns similar to this, again comes to the front in a new role."Donnelly: The article says Kentucky Daisy and 11 other women snuck onto some land before it was officially opened to settlers, hoping to beat other people to a good claim. They hid from the authorities but eventually got caught and had to go back to the border.So women were definitely involved in Oklahoma land runs. But did a group of them really start a town called Bathsheba?Diana Simon: So these women just set up this town, from what we gather.Donnelly: Diana Simon runs the Cherokee Strip Museum in Perry. She and I are standing in a field in Noble County, not far from where Bathsheba supposedly sprang into existence in September 1893.Simon: And they say that it is located somewhere in Garfield County. And that's between Enid, which is Garfield County, and Perry, which is Noble County. And it also described it as a three hour horse ride to Stillwater.Donnelly: Highway 64 is a few hundred yards away but when we turn our backs to it, dry grass stretches out in every direction. It's not hard to imagine a tiny town popping up in a place just like this. Remember the Kansas reporter who wrote about finding Bathsheba? I couldn't find his article, but I did find quotes from it in a 1961 Oklahoman piece called "The Town Without Men" by Robert Cunningham.The article says the women started the town a few days after Oklahoma's fourth and largest land run in the Cherokee Strip or Cherokee Outlet. That was a big rectangle of land in the Northwest that originally belonged to the Cherokee tribe. The newspaper says 33 women originally lived in Bathsheba.Simon: "It was a town of women where male horses, male chickens, male hogs were excluded, along with the males of their own species."Donnelly: Twelve of the women reportedly left the town after the first week and one was expelled for having a razor--a so-called "masculine implement."On his second trip to the town, the Kansas reporter writes he saw a group of about two dozen women wearing long dark dresses staring at him. Then a woman allegedly fired a shotgun in his direction.Unfortunately, this story is the only proof we have of Bathsheba's existence, and it's not exactly reliable. The late Douglas Werden calls it fictional and derogatory. Werden was a professor at West Texas A&amp;M University. He wrote an article called "Stereotypes, Lies and Crass Humor: When Men Write About Women in Oklahoma Land Runs." Werden writes "by creating such radically anti male characters, the authors both mock the women and construct them as an enemy."He says there are lots of clues the town is made up, including its name. You might recognize Bathsheba if you're familiar with the Bible.Lisa Wolfe: In English we usually say "bath-SHEE-buh," but the Hebrew would sound more like "baht-SHAY-vuh."Donnelly: Lisa Wolfe teaches Hebrew Bible at Oklahoma City University.Wolfe: She's not exactly your strongest female figure in the Bible. So we meet her in 2 Samuel 11.Donnelly: The chapter starts out, "when the kings went out to war in the spring of the year, King David was at home."Wolfe: And he was walking on his palace roof garden and he sees this woman bathing. And he sends his--he asks who this is and he sends his servants to go--the Hebrew just says "take her." Most translations say "go and get her," "bring her to me," or something like that. And we don't know anything about how Bathsheba feels about that.Donnelly: King David and Bathsheba sleep together, even though Bathsheba is married to someone else. Wolfe says there's no way there was opportunity for consent. And Bathsheba only has one line in this story: "I am pregnant." Wolfe says this makes Bathsheba a potentially tragic character. Later in the Bible, Bathsheba marries King David and gives birth to Solomon. She helps Solomon become king after David. So Bathsheba's identity is almost entirely tied to male figures, which Wolfe says doesn't quite fit with the independent spirit of this rumored town.Wolfe: I feel like if I were a woman who wanted to start a community of women and name it after a biblical woman, I would pick Ruth or Naomi, maybe.Donnelly: The late Professor Werden writes it's much more likely the men who created the fictional story about Bathsheba chose the name. He says it would let them sexualize and fantasize about conquering an entire community of females. Back in Noble County, Diana Simon says she enjoys imagining the town even though it might be made up.Simon: Well I guess I hope it's real because I think that even way back then, women felt like individuals. They weren't just a wife. And I would hope that that's where the spirit came from.Donnelly: Simon says she's inspired thinking about strong independent women like Kentucky Daisy participating in land runs and starting their own town.Simon: They must have been some kind of rebels. But I probably would've been right there with 'em, I don't know. I'm kind of a rebel, you know, I like to go off the beaten path a little bit. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by Claire Donnelly and edited by Jacob McCleland. David Graey composed the theme music. Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. As a community-supported news organization, <a href="http://www.kgou.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KGOU</a> relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate <a href="http://www.kgou.org/donate-online" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">online</a>, or by contacting our <a href="http://www.kgou.org/contact-us" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Membership</a> department.

How Curious: An All-Female Ghost Town?

(Seminole Nation Museum, Wewoka, OK)Frank Baker grew up hearing his family members use a specific expression. If something was messed up or shady, they would say it was "worse than a Wewoka switch."He asked "How Curious:" Where did this slang come from? And what is a "Wewoka switch?" FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:Claire Donnelly: Frank Baker grew up in Oklahoma.Frank Baker: My father was born in 1907 and he was the youngest of his family. And so he had older brothers who were born in the late 1800s.Donnelly: And when Frank was a kid he loved to listen to his uncles' stories.Baker: Guys sitting around drinking a little whiskey, smoking cigars. And as a kid, I would just be on the fringe of these, you know, probably half truths, lies and maybe intermingled with a little bit of fact.Donnelly: Frank's uncles also liked to use a specific turn of phrase.Baker: If something was really screwed up and/or shady, it would be, you know, "worse than a Wewoka switch" or "hell, that's just like a Wewoka switch!"Donnelly: So Frank asked "How Curious."Baker: I think I'd just like to know the truth of the matter: what the Wewoka switch was, and how if it was just something that was in my family. But I swear to goodness I think I've heard it elsewhere throughout the years.Donnelly: This is "How Curious" from KGOU, exploring your questions about the state we call home. I'm Claire Donnelly. Frank's uncle's name was Carl Baker and he was a railroad guy. Uncle Carl was based in Tulsa but he was always riding on trains to various places which, Frank says, always seemed kind of glamorous.Baker: He was one of those guys that you would sit around and listen to him talk forever. And it was always in the form of anecdotes. Like, "well, one time this old boy and I got into it," or "we were on a haul up to Kansas City." And he'd talk about sometimes, you know, hooking up the various cars, you know, guys could lose a hand or could lose a leg.Donnelly: Frank says Uncle Carl was kind of a big dude. And tough.Baker: I think his nose had been broken a couple of times. And, you know, the ears were a little cauliflower-esque. So I think the gentleman knew some fisticuffs throughout the years.Donnelly: But back to this phrase: "Worse than a Wewoka switch." What does it have to do with Uncle Carl? And with railroads?Richard Ellwanger: The Wewoka Switch is a train station here in Wewoka.Donnelly: I meet Richard Ellwanger at the Seminole Nation Museum in Wewoka. He's the museum's director. Wewoka is a city of about 3400 people in Seminole County in the eastern part of the state. And it used to be a railroad town. The Rock Island Line bought the railroad that runs through here at the turn of the century.Ellwanger: They laid a lot more tracks that ran from McAlester all the way up to Oklahoma City. And they would transport coal from McAlester through Wewoka on the lines up to Oklahoma City.Donnelly: Ellwanger says Rock Island built a new Wewoka train depot. And it built what are called switching tracks.Ellwanger: There were tracks on either side of the depot that would run for a half mile in each direction. And this is where train cars would be unloaded. Which originally was perfectly fine. It was, you know, Wewoka was a very quiet, sleepy town, a couple of thousand people.Donnelly: But then people flooded into Wewoka during the oil boom in the 1920s. And all of those people needed stuff: stuff to build homes, stuff to build oil derricks.Ellwanger: Wewoka's switching station was the largest such system between Oklahoma City and Little Rock. So there were millions and millions of tons of things coming into this switching station.Donnelly: And with all of that stuff, some things got lost.Ellwanger: You know, if you were waiting to drill a well, you needed your equipment right then and there. And somewhere in hundreds of cars on the side tracks would be what you were looking for.Donnelly: So someone coined a phrase: "caught in a Wewoka switch." Pretty close to what Frank Baker grew up hearing. It meant you were in a bad situation or a tight spot.Ellwanger: This became such a problem for the railroad that Rock Island had a stamp made up that said "Search Wewoka Switch." So if you, you know, if you got a complaint that something was lost, well, they would stamp it with the stamp and, you know, move the paperwork on.Donnelly: So there were lots of valuable things coming in and out of Wewoka. And sometimes, nobody knew where it was. Frank Baker says Uncle Carl's stories made it sound like there might have been some shady dealings.Baker: Sometimes things were legitimately lost in Wewoka. Other times, people were making some money off things just kind of disappearing down in the railroad yards there. And I got the feeling that it was a well-known secret among railroad guys, you know, in the area that if you would be a little bit of a facilitator you'd get a bit of a kickback.Donnelly: I put this idea to Richard Ellwanger.Ellwanger: There are stories--of course, there's always somebody that's industrious--that you could probably grease the skids a little if you maybe shared a little bit of cash with perhaps the engineers, some of the railroad men. If you knew approximately when your train was coming in, your railroad car, they'd keep a lookout for it. And then they would make sure that once it got into the track system, they knew where your goods were.Donnelly: OK, but what about really shady stuff? Like, was anyone paying railroad guys to "disappear" railcars and the stuff inside them? Ellwanger says it's definitely possible.Ellwanger: I could very well see that if if you needed materials to build a well, and your stuff wasn't going to come in, but somebody else's did, you know, maybe "hey," maybe for a little money, that could be yours.Donnelly: Of course, stuff wasn't the only thing traveling through Wewoka. There were passenger trains, too. And in 1948, a presidential candidate.Jim Howell: I heard Harry Truman speak from the back of a railroad car. Just a campaign speech, how he was going to help America if he was elected.Donnelly: This is Jim Howell. He graduated from Wewoka High School in 1952. He's an attorney and former Oklahoma state senator. Howell says there's also another definition for the Wewoka switch.Howell: Back during the boom, the oil field workers played poker at night. And two fellows would get together and they would get a newcomer between them. And they would have their cards marked in such a way that they would get the newcomer's money. If you were the person losing all the money, you were in the middle of the Wewoka switch.Donnelly: Unfortunately, trains don't run through Wewoka anymore. In the 1950s and 60s, lots of Rock Island branch lines were abandoned. And the Rock Island system closed down in 1980. The old Wewoka depot is now the city's chamber of commerce building. But you can see the remnants of the original train tracks running through the grass near the building. The famous--or infamous?--switching tracks have been mostly covered up. But Jim Howell says be careful playing cards out that way.Howell: Believe me, I gave up poker in Wewoka after I had an adventure with the Wewoka switch.Donnelly: That's it for this episode of "How Curious." And this is our last episode for this season, but we're working hard on lots of good stories for next season. If you missed some episodes, or only heard the on air versions, you can listen to the full versions on our website or wherever you get your podcasts. And keep sending us your questions! The "How Curious" email address is curious@kgou.org. The show is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by me, Claire Donnelly, and edited by Jacob McCleland.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

(Seminole Nation Museum, Wewoka, OK)Frank Baker grew up hearing his family members use a specific expression. If something was messed up or shady, they would say it was "worse than a Wewoka switch."He asked "How Curious:" Where did this slang come from? And what is a "Wewoka switch?" FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:Claire Donnelly: Frank Baker grew up in Oklahoma.Frank Baker: My father was born in 1907 and he was the youngest of his family. And so he had older brothers who were born in the late 1800s.Donnelly: And when Frank was a kid he loved to listen to his uncles' stories.Baker: Guys sitting around drinking a little whiskey, smoking cigars. And as a kid, I would just be on the fringe of these, you know, probably half truths, lies and maybe intermingled with a little bit of fact.Donnelly: Frank's uncles also liked to use a specific turn of phrase.Baker: If something was really screwed up and/or shady, it would be, you know, "worse than a Wewoka switch" or "hell, that's just like a Wewoka switch!"Donnelly: So Frank asked "How Curious."Baker: I think I'd just like to know the truth of the matter: what the Wewoka switch was, and how if it was just something that was in my family. But I swear to goodness I think I've heard it elsewhere throughout the years.Donnelly: This is "How Curious" from KGOU, exploring your questions about the state we call home. I'm Claire Donnelly. Frank's uncle's name was Carl Baker and he was a railroad guy. Uncle Carl was based in Tulsa but he was always riding on trains to various places which, Frank says, always seemed kind of glamorous.Baker: He was one of those guys that you would sit around and listen to him talk forever. And it was always in the form of anecdotes. Like, "well, one time this old boy and I got into it," or "we were on a haul up to Kansas City." And he'd talk about sometimes, you know, hooking up the various cars, you know, guys could lose a hand or could lose a leg.Donnelly: Frank says Uncle Carl was kind of a big dude. And tough.Baker: I think his nose had been broken a couple of times. And, you know, the ears were a little cauliflower-esque. So I think the gentleman knew some fisticuffs throughout the years.Donnelly: But back to this phrase: "Worse than a Wewoka switch." What does it have to do with Uncle Carl? And with railroads?Richard Ellwanger: The Wewoka Switch is a train station here in Wewoka.Donnelly: I meet Richard Ellwanger at the Seminole Nation Museum in Wewoka. He's the museum's director. Wewoka is a city of about 3400 people in Seminole County in the eastern part of the state. And it used to be a railroad town. The Rock Island Line bought the railroad that runs through here at the turn of the century.Ellwanger: They laid a lot more tracks that ran from McAlester all the way up to Oklahoma City. And they would transport coal from McAlester through Wewoka on the lines up to Oklahoma City.Donnelly: Ellwanger says Rock Island built a new Wewoka train depot. And it built what are called switching tracks.Ellwanger: There were tracks on either side of the depot that would run for a half mile in each direction. And this is where train cars would be unloaded. Which originally was perfectly fine. It was, you know, Wewoka was a very quiet, sleepy town, a couple of thousand people.Donnelly: But then people flooded into Wewoka during the oil boom in the 1920s. And all of those people needed stuff: stuff to build homes, stuff to build oil derricks.Ellwanger: Wewoka's switching station was the largest such system between Oklahoma City and Little Rock. So there were millions and millions of tons of things coming into this switching station.Donnelly: And with all of that stuff, some things got lost.Ellwanger: You know, if you were waiting to drill a well, you needed your equipment right then and there. And somewhere in hundreds of cars on the side tracks would be what you were looking for.Donnelly: So someone coined a phrase: "caught in a Wewoka switch." Pretty close to what Frank Baker grew up hearing. It meant you were in a bad situation or a tight spot.Ellwanger: This became such a problem for the railroad that Rock Island had a stamp made up that said "Search Wewoka Switch." So if you, you know, if you got a complaint that something was lost, well, they would stamp it with the stamp and, you know, move the paperwork on.Donnelly: So there were lots of valuable things coming in and out of Wewoka. And sometimes, nobody knew where it was. Frank Baker says Uncle Carl's stories made it sound like there might have been some shady dealings.Baker: Sometimes things were legitimately lost in Wewoka. Other times, people were making some money off things just kind of disappearing down in the railroad yards there. And I got the feeling that it was a well-known secret among railroad guys, you know, in the area that if you would be a little bit of a facilitator you'd get a bit of a kickback.Donnelly: I put this idea to Richard Ellwanger.Ellwanger: There are stories--of course, there's always somebody that's industrious--that you could probably grease the skids a little if you maybe shared a little bit of cash with perhaps the engineers, some of the railroad men. If you knew approximately when your train was coming in, your railroad car, they'd keep a lookout for it. And then they would make sure that once it got into the track system, they knew where your goods were.Donnelly: OK, but what about really shady stuff? Like, was anyone paying railroad guys to "disappear" railcars and the stuff inside them? Ellwanger says it's definitely possible.Ellwanger: I could very well see that if if you needed materials to build a well, and your stuff wasn't going to come in, but somebody else's did, you know, maybe "hey," maybe for a little money, that could be yours.Donnelly: Of course, stuff wasn't the only thing traveling through Wewoka. There were passenger trains, too. And in 1948, a presidential candidate.Jim Howell: I heard Harry Truman speak from the back of a railroad car. Just a campaign speech, how he was going to help America if he was elected.Donnelly: This is Jim Howell. He graduated from Wewoka High School in 1952. He's an attorney and former Oklahoma state senator. Howell says there's also another definition for the Wewoka switch.Howell: Back during the boom, the oil field workers played poker at night. And two fellows would get together and they would get a newcomer between them. And they would have their cards marked in such a way that they would get the newcomer's money. If you were the person losing all the money, you were in the middle of the Wewoka switch.Donnelly: Unfortunately, trains don't run through Wewoka anymore. In the 1950s and 60s, lots of Rock Island branch lines were abandoned. And the Rock Island system closed down in 1980. The old Wewoka depot is now the city's chamber of commerce building. But you can see the remnants of the original train tracks running through the grass near the building. The famous--or infamous?--switching tracks have been mostly covered up. But Jim Howell says be careful playing cards out that way.Howell: Believe me, I gave up poker in Wewoka after I had an adventure with the Wewoka switch.Donnelly: That's it for this episode of "How Curious." And this is our last episode for this season, but we're working hard on lots of good stories for next season. If you missed some episodes, or only heard the on air versions, you can listen to the full versions on our website or wherever you get your podcasts. And keep sending us your questions! The "How Curious" email address is curious@kgou.org. The show is a production of KGOU Radio. It's produced by me, Claire Donnelly, and edited by Jacob McCleland.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. <a href="http://kgou.org/donate-online" rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" target="_blank">Donate online</a>, or by contacting our Membership department.

How Curious: Worse Than A Wewoka Switch?

(Doug Hoke / Oklahoma Historical Society)Listener Daniel Humphrey heard Oklahoma City’s drag performances used to be famous nationwide and that celebrities like Frank Sinatra and Johnny Carson visited the city to see shows. So he asked How Curious: Was Oklahoma home to one of the country’s most renowned drag scenes? Oklahoma City’s Northwest 39th Street has been a local LGBTQ hotspot since the 1980s.Some residents fondly call the area “The Strip” or “The Gayborhood.” The district features a handful of gay bars and nightclubs, with regular drag shows and RuPaul’s Drag Race watch parties. It also hosts the city’s annual Pride festival.  “There’s gonna be everybody from every walk of life,” said Lauren Zuniga, president of the Oklahoma City Pride Alliance.  But 39th Street wasn’t always an LGBT gathering place. “Known Spots” Oklahoma City hosted traveling female impersonation shows as early as 1908, when a Lyric Theater performance by Lou Bates was advertised in the newspaper. Female impersonator Julian Eltinge performed at the Overholser Opera House about a decade later. Clubs like The Garden of Allah, later known as Louie’s 29 Club, staged impersonation shows, and The Jewel Box Revue traveling group also made regular stops in the city. “They came sometimes for two to three weeks at a time. They would sell out clubs. And these were not gay clubs, they were just regular bars,” said Aaron Bachhofer, Associate Dean of the Social Sciences Division and Professor of History at Rose State College. By the the 1940s and 50s, a number of downtown businesses catered to LGBTQ customers. “There were known spots--areas where gay and lesbian folks could congregate,” Bachhofer said. Places like Bishop’s Tap Room, across from the Skirvin Hotel on North Broadway, or along Grand Avenue (now Sheridan), spots like The Circus Room, Talk of the Town, The It’ll Do Club and The Mirror Lounge. The Mayflower Lounge, in a dingy former office building on the northeast corner of Northwest 23rd Street and Classen, was Oklahoma City’s most popular gay bar in the late 1950s, Bachhofer said. According to former customers, The Mayflower’s leaky roof caused pieces of wallboard to fall from the ceiling into patrons’ drinks, so management tacked a military parachute on the ceiling. Some claim Johnny Carson mentioned The Mayflower on The Tonight Show when it closed around 1964 after suffering a bad fire. Oklahoma City’s first permanent “drag bar,” The Inferno, opened in 1958. Tony Sinclair, one of Oklahoma City’s best known female impersonators, performed there in the regular show “Les Girls Revue.” Sinclair imitated celebrities from Mae West to Diana Ross to Marilyn Monroe. “All Of A Sudden, There’s 30 Cops Everywhere” Not long ago, Oklahoma City’s LGBTQ clubs and their patrons faced the constant threat of being raided or arrested. “You had to be careful when you came in and careful when you left,” said John Gibbons, co-owner of The Boom nightclub. In 1983, a club called Angles on Northwest 39th Street filed a federal lawsuit against the City of Oklahoma City. It accused a handful of police officers of harassing customers and alleged officers participated in “a campaign of terror, intimidation, harassment and abuse.” “I can remember being 22 years old with my boyfriend on the dance floor at Angles, and the doors open up and all of a sudden, there’s 30 cops everywhere,” Gibbons said. Oklahoma City settled the lawsuit for $1, plus legal fees, and city police officers agreed to obey a permanent injunction to reduce police presence near the club.In a 1983 interview with The Gayly Oklahoman newspaper, Angles club owners said the settlement set a precedent for the entire gay community. Did Frank Sinatra And Johnny Carson Fly In For OKC Drag Shows? It’s difficult to prove whether the rumor Daniel Humphrey heard is true. Frank Sinatra stayed at the Skirvin back when a number of downtown bars were LGBTQ-friendly. Bachhofer said Sinatra or Johnny Carson could have stopped into one of these spots while visiting Oklahoma City. “Maybe they went to The Mayflower when they were here, or maybe they went to Bishop’s Tap Room,” Bachhofer said. Lauren Zuniga isn’t aware of any celebrity appearances in the history of Oklahoma City’s drag scene, but, like Bachhofer, she says it’s possible people like Sinatra and Carson did come by. “I haven’t heard about that, but that would not surprise me. Our drag shows are pretty top-notch,” Zuniga said. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It’s produced by Claire Donnelly and this episode was edited by Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Special thansk this week to James Cooper.Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

(Doug Hoke / Oklahoma Historical Society)Listener Daniel Humphrey heard Oklahoma City’s drag performances used to be famous nationwide and that celebrities like Frank Sinatra and Johnny Carson visited the city to see shows. So he asked How Curious: Was Oklahoma home to one of the country’s most renowned drag scenes? Oklahoma City’s Northwest 39th Street has been a local LGBTQ hotspot since the 1980s.Some residents fondly call the area “The Strip” or “The Gayborhood.” The district features a handful of gay bars and nightclubs, with regular drag shows and RuPaul’s Drag Race watch parties. It also hosts the city’s annual Pride festival. “There’s gonna be everybody from every walk of life,” said Lauren Zuniga, president of the Oklahoma City Pride <a href="https://www.gayly.com/okc-pride-alliance-produce-okc-pride-2019" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alliance</a>. But 39th Street wasn’t always an LGBT gathering place. “Known Spots” Oklahoma City hosted traveling female impersonation shows as early as 1908, when a Lyric Theater performance by Lou Bates was advertised in the newspaper. Female impersonator <a href="https://www.newsweek.com/herstory-drag-julian-eltinge-rupauls-drag-race-1415489" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Julian Eltinge</a> performed at the Overholser Opera House about a decade later. Clubs like The Garden of Allah, later known as Louie’s 29 Club, staged impersonation shows, and The Jewel Box Revue traveling <a href="https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-jewel-box-revue-americas-first-gay-community_b_2228790?guccounter=1&amp;guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&amp;guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADkp8rKcBC1UMvD6MP6VrlvEoMRi5YGOuEJP8K-Q1AHrp-GYRn52qPmHB9QuRjhfhPxbRN13HhZCSyJx-gYb-TcwFeVahV3rQ23LQGBt4urfG6U8H8cwuBKVrNolF-Ojq_rOtODfe83ZRXAPsxNOyOn36fpdYwrui0eX6o5qdUPa" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">group</a> also made regular stops in the city. “They came sometimes for two to three weeks at a time. They would sell out clubs. And these were not gay clubs, they were just regular bars,” said Aaron Bachhofer, Associate <a href="https://www.rose.edu/staff/social-sciences-division/bachhofer-aaron/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Dean</a> of the Social Sciences Division and Professor of History at Rose State College. By the the 1940s and 50s, a number of downtown businesses catered to LGBTQ customers. “There were known spots--areas where gay and lesbian folks could congregate,” Bachhofer <a href="https://shareok.org/handle/11244/6776" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">said</a>. Places like Bishop’s Tap Room, across from the Skirvin Hotel on North Broadway, or along Grand Avenue (now Sheridan), spots like The Circus Room, Talk of the Town, The It’ll Do Club and The Mirror Lounge. The Mayflower Lounge, in a dingy former office building on the northeast corner of Northwest 23rd Street and Classen, was Oklahoma City’s most popular gay bar in the late 1950s, Bachhofer said. According to former customers, The Mayflower’s leaky roof caused pieces of wallboard to fall from the ceiling into patrons’ drinks, so management tacked a military parachute on the ceiling. Some claim Johnny Carson mentioned The Mayflower on The Tonight Show when it closed around 1964 after suffering a bad fire. Oklahoma City’s first permanent “drag bar,” The Inferno, opened in 1958. <a href="https://newsok.com/article/2078461/city-drag-queen-struts-his-stuff" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Tony Sinclair</a>, one of Oklahoma City’s best known female impersonators, performed there in the regular show “Les Girls Revue.” Sinclair imitated celebrities from Mae West to Diana Ross to Marilyn Monroe. “All Of A Sudden, There’s 30 Cops Everywhere” Not long ago, Oklahoma City’s LGBTQ clubs and their patrons faced the constant threat of being raided or arrested. “You had to be careful when you came in and careful when you left,” said John Gibbons, co-owner of <a href="http://www.theboomokc.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Boom</a> nightclub. In 1983, a club called Angles on Northwest 39th Street filed a federal lawsuit against the City of Oklahoma City. It accused a handful of police officers of harassing customers and alleged officers participated in “a campaign of terror, intimidation, harassment and abuse.” “I can remember being 22 years old with my boyfriend on the dance floor at Angles, and the doors open up and all of a sudden, there’s 30 cops everywhere,” Gibbons said. Oklahoma City <a href="https://newsok.com/article/2039271/council-settles-out-of-court-with-club-for-homosexuals" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">settled</a> the lawsuit for $1, plus legal fees, and city police officers agreed to obey a permanent injunction to reduce police presence near the <a href="http://club.In" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">club.In</a> a 1983 interview with The Gayly Oklahoman newspaper, Angles club owners said the settlement set a precedent for the entire gay community. Did Frank Sinatra And Johnny Carson Fly In For OKC Drag Shows? It’s difficult to prove whether the rumor Daniel Humphrey heard is true. Frank Sinatra stayed at the Skirvin back when a number of downtown bars were LGBTQ-friendly. Bachhofer said Sinatra or Johnny Carson could have stopped into one of these spots while visiting Oklahoma City. “Maybe they went to The Mayflower when they were here, or maybe they went to Bishop’s Tap Room,” Bachhofer said. Lauren Zuniga isn’t aware of any celebrity appearances in the history of Oklahoma City’s drag scene, but, like Bachhofer, she says it’s possible people like Sinatra and Carson did come by. “I haven’t heard about that, but that would not surprise me. Our drag shows are pretty top-notch,” Zuniga said. How Curious is a production of KGOU Radio. It’s produced by Claire Donnelly and this episode was edited by Caroline Halter. David Graey composed the theme music. Special thansk this week to James Cooper.Email your questions about Oklahoma to curious@kgou.org. Subscribe to the How Curious podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.As a community-supported news organization, KGOU relies on contributions from readers and listeners to fulfill its mission of public service to Oklahoma and beyond. Donate online, or by contacting our Membership department.

How Curious: What’s The History Of Oklahoma City’s Drag Shows?

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