Denis Bradley's guest appearances

Denis Bradley

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FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION‘Politicians will argue, they will fight over it and they will come up with reasons for not dealing with the past’ It was hoped that the Patten reforms would herald a new start for policing in Northern Ireland, but, argues Denis Bradley, the PSNI remains burdened with its legacy from the old RUC. Denis is a former vice-chair of the Northern Ireland Policing Board and co-chair of the Consultative Group on the Past. He was talking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust. “In the setting-up of the PSNI, the new service inherited, carried with it, the deeds of the RUC. That was done at the time to placate unionism, which is understandable, I wouldn’t have any great problem with that,” says Denis. “The difficulty with it was that it was taking the past with it, in the sense that it had to deal with the past while being part of the conflict itself. That left it in a bit of a bind. That goes through right to the present day. It may have been better to not carry the deeds of the RUC with it, but we are where we are, as they say.” Denis adds: “The other thing is that in the establishment of it, the RUC overhung the new policing service. So does the conflict, in the sense that neither did militant republicanism totally go away, with dissidents breaking off from the Provisional IRA. Their whole base was within nationalist working class areas and they kept their presence there, through things like the Omagh bomb and right up to the present day. “While one of the most prominent people in the whole Provisional organisation, Martin McGuinness - and within the new political establishment - described them as ‘militarily pathetic’, they also carried a threat – and the main threat was against the new policing service, on the grounds that they claimed that it wasn’t a fully re-established, reconstituted, independent service.” This created serious challenges for the PSNI, made worse, argues Denis, by the lack of any tradition or culture of organised policing in working class nationalist areas. Though, he stresses, these areas were lawful, they were not used to a uniformed police service being present. This combination of factors meant that “policing in these communities was not what it should have been”. That should have led to a heavy concentration of recruiting police officers from those communities, along with a strong commitment to community policing in those areas – but that did not happen, says Denis. Yet, despite this, community satisfaction with policing in Northern Ireland is by international standards unusually high – at around 80%, which is comparable to that across Europe. “Certainly higher than in some other countries, such as America,” explains Denis. The PSNI remains a difficult force to lead. Chief constables who had a background in the RUC have found it impossible to shake off their association with the past, while all but one of those who came from England have been accused of naivety in their understanding of the complications of Northern Ireland society. Denis believes that only by tackling the inherent problems that he described can these leadership challenges be overcome. “I don’t think it matters so much who is the chief constable, because he or she is only one person.” Denis praises the PSNI for improving community relationships across much of Northern Ireland. “I think that they have worked reasonably hard, and partially successfully, integrating themselves into communities. I get good feedback at times.” Denis adds: “I don’t believe the middle class in any country has difficulty with policing…. Where you find problems in most countries is in working class communities.” Structures of accountability should mean that the PSNI is challenged to improve policing in Northern Ireland’s working class areas, including nationalist areas. But instead, says Denis, the response is “if we go in and do what you are asking us to do, we will get ourselves killed”. Policing anywhere works though a combination of trust and what might be termed ‘dispassionate engagement’, argues Denis. “If the community it is policing has more trust and respect in it than it has mistrust and disrespect - if the balance is 50, 60, 70% -then policing can tackle most things - they will take the community with it, in good times and in bad. “If, on the other hand, it is 30, or 40, or 15 or 20% - a minority feeling of trust – then in good times or bad that community will not liaise with, will not communicate with, policing in ways that are positive and successful in policing terms. If you scale that up into situations where there is organised crime, where people use guns, use drugs, or are very ruthless and violent, then you have the clash - between whether the community has trust in the police enough as a humane body, but also as a professional body. Then that police force will be more powerful and more successful than the organised crime. “Dublin is a perfect example of that. Where communities have been more frightened of the drug gangs than the police, with young people more attracted to crime gangs than to the police.” It then becomes necessary for the police to engage with communities to generate the respect necessary to defeat crime gangs. While the PSNI are dealing with the legacy of the RUC, and the complaints of its operations as a partisan force, there is also the legacy of Troubles killings. With the UK government apparently committed to avoiding new prosecutions of soldiers, this has again become extremely contentious. Denis is wary about moves to set up another committee looking at the past, given the work that he and Archbishop Lord Robin Eames were engaged in when co-chairing the Consultative Group on the Past, which contained just three people. “One of my fears around the Stormont House Agreement, which came about ten years after the Consultative Group on the Past, in its management of how to deal with the past has about 30, or 40, or 60 people involved, in the sense that each aspect has more and more people involved, including a very strong representation from our political parties. “I have never been of the opinion that the political parties are capable of dealing with the past. They will argue, they will fight over it and they will come up with reasons for not dealing with things. But they will never deal with it. There will always be a stand-off.” The Consultative Group addressed this by concluding that the two governments – the UK and Ireland – would have to resolve the problems. “The second thing in dealing with the past is to be incredibly sensitive towards the victims. But in dealing with victims you must never allow the victims to be the leaders around this. There will always be divisions. They have different narratives and different needs and different passions. So you can never allow the victims to be the leaders in this. And to some extent victims have been politicised.” Those comments were made by Denis several weeks before the arguments emerged that are now holding up the payment of pensions to Troubles survivors. But the deadlock certainly seems to vindicate his observations. Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION‘Politicians will argue, they will fight over it and they will come up with reasons for not dealing with the past’ It was hoped that the Patten reforms would herald a new start for policing in Northern Ireland, but, argues Denis Bradley, the PSNI remains burdened with its legacy from the old RUC. Denis is a former vice-chair of the Northern Ireland Policing Board and co-chair of the Consultative Group on the Past. He was talking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust. “In the setting-up of the PSNI, the new service inherited, carried with it, the deeds of the RUC. That was done at the time to placate unionism, which is understandable, I wouldn’t have any great problem with that,” says Denis. “The difficulty with it was that it was taking the past with it, in the sense that it had to deal with the past while being part of the conflict itself. That left it in a bit of a bind. That goes through right to the present day. It may have been better to not carry the deeds of the RUC with it, but we are where we are, as they say.” Denis adds: “The other thing is that in the establishment of it, the RUC overhung the new policing service. So does the conflict, in the sense that neither did militant republicanism totally go away, with dissidents breaking off from the Provisional IRA. Their whole base was within nationalist working class areas and they kept their presence there, through things like the Omagh bomb and right up to the present day. “While one of the most prominent people in the whole Provisional organisation, Martin McGuinness - and within the new political establishment - described them as ‘militarily pathetic’, they also carried a threat – and the main threat was against the new policing service, on the grounds that they claimed that it wasn’t a fully re-established, reconstituted, independent service.” This created serious challenges for the PSNI, made worse, argues Denis, by the lack of any tradition or culture of organised policing in working class nationalist areas. Though, he stresses, these areas were lawful, they were not used to a uniformed police service being present. This combination of factors meant that “policing in these communities was not what it should have been”. That should have led to a heavy concentration of recruiting police officers from those communities, along with a strong commitment to community policing in those areas – but that did not happen, says Denis. Yet, despite this, community satisfaction with policing in Northern Ireland is by international standards unusually high – at around 80%, which is comparable to that across Europe. “Certainly higher than in some other countries, such as America,” explains Denis. The PSNI remains a difficult force to lead. Chief constables who had a background in the RUC have found it impossible to shake off their association with the past, while all but one of those who came from England have been accused of naivety in their understanding of the complications of Northern Ireland society. Denis believes that only by tackling the inherent problems that he described can these leadership challenges be overcome. “I don’t think it matters so much who is the chief constable, because he or she is only one person.” Denis praises the PSNI for improving community relationships across much of Northern Ireland. “I think that they have worked reasonably hard, and partially successfully, integrating themselves into communities. I get good feedback at times.” Denis adds: “I don’t believe the middle class in any country has difficulty with policing…. Where you find problems in most countries is in working class communities.” Structures of accountability should mean that the PSNI is challenged to improve policing in Northern Ireland’s working class areas, including nationalist areas. But instead, says Denis, the response is “if we go in and do what you are asking us to do, we will get ourselves killed”. Policing anywhere works though a combination of trust and what might be termed ‘dispassionate engagement’, argues Denis. “If the community it is policing has more trust and respect in it than it has mistrust and disrespect - if the balance is 50, 60, 70% -then policing can tackle most things - they will take the community with it, in good times and in bad. “If, on the other hand, it is 30, or 40, or 15 or 20% - a minority feeling of trust – then in good times or bad that community will not liaise with, will not communicate with, policing in ways that are positive and successful in policing terms. If you scale that up into situations where there is organised crime, where people use guns, use drugs, or are very ruthless and violent, then you have the clash - between whether the community has trust in the police enough as a humane body, but also as a professional body. Then that police force will be more powerful and more successful than the organised crime. “Dublin is a perfect example of that. Where communities have been more frightened of the drug gangs than the police, with young people more attracted to crime gangs than to the police.” It then becomes necessary for the police to engage with communities to generate the respect necessary to defeat crime gangs. While the PSNI are dealing with the legacy of the RUC, and the complaints of its operations as a partisan force, there is also the legacy of Troubles killings. With the UK government apparently committed to avoiding new prosecutions of soldiers, this has again become extremely contentious. Denis is wary about moves to set up another committee looking at the past, given the work that he and Archbishop Lord Robin Eames were engaged in when co-chairing the Consultative Group on the Past, which contained just three people. “One of my fears around the Stormont House Agreement, which came about ten years after the Consultative Group on the Past, in its management of how to deal with the past has about 30, or 40, or 60 people involved, in the sense that each aspect has more and more people involved, including a very strong representation from our political parties. “I have never been of the opinion that the political parties are capable of dealing with the past. They will argue, they will fight over it and they will come up with reasons for not dealing with things. But they will never deal with it. There will always be a stand-off.” The Consultative Group addressed this by concluding that the two governments – the UK and Ireland – would have to resolve the problems. “The second thing in dealing with the past is to be incredibly sensitive towards the victims. But in dealing with victims you must never allow the victims to be the leaders around this. There will always be divisions. They have different narratives and different needs and different passions. So you can never allow the victims to be the leaders in this. And to some extent victims have been politicised.” Those comments were made by Denis several weeks before the arguments emerged that are now holding up the payment of pensions to Troubles survivors. But the deadlock certainly seems to vindicate his observations. Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

S2 - Episode 10 - Denis Bradley 

FULL EPISODE NOTES ‘Brexit means that Northern Ireland’s constitutional future has become an issue for Europe’, says Denis Bradley Denis Bradley was keen to move on in the latest Forward Together podcast interview to discuss the constitutional position of Northern Ireland.  “Well that's the one that intrigues me because I don't know the answer!,” he says.   “First of all I think something very important happened within the last couple of weeks and has not received attention. And that is that the Europeans have said if there a no deal situation we will still have to deal with the Northern Ireland situation.  That's a massive movement.” Denis insists that he does not believe that the re-imposition of a hard border is possible.  People in border areas – “the local farmer, the local shopkeeper, the local child” – have now become too used to being without borders.  “And anyway, all the border structures would be within green territory.  What I mean by green territory is from here [Derry] to Dundalk is basically - with a few exceptions, a few pockets - it's basically a nationalist homeland.  So to think that you could do that [impose a hard border] is thinking that you can put the cavalry of the old western films out into the fort somewhere.”  But, in the analogy, the Apaches won’t stand for it. He continues: “The Europeans are saying, if there's no deal.... we will not deal with the British government until we solve this problem. I think that brings us to a new place. To some degree it takes the sweat off Leo Varadkar.  But I also think it's an understanding that we're different.  That's what makes us different from Scotland.... I think the fascinating thing about Brexit is that it was an English construct. And it is going to leave England incredibly unsettled for a long period of time.  Whether that is for five years, or 10 years, or a generation, I do not know.” That, in turn, leads to a new conversation about the future of Northern Ireland, including the potential All Ireland Forum, favoured by Denis.  “What we need is for a conversation to start,” he says.  “What we need is engagement from all the different parts of this island.”  But, he warns: “I do see unionism’s propensity to go back in on itself and at this difficult moment not to engage. I can understand why this is. They come from a position that nationalism can lose 20 times or 40 times - unionism can only lose once... They will become incredibly defensive.” Denis wonders if unionism and loyalism is beginning a process of change. “My contact with loyalism over the last 20 years has been substantial and they have been very angry with the DUP, because they feel betrayed by the DUP and they feel that the DUP looks down their nose at them.  I think they are much less willing to be radicalised into creating havoc on the streets if we lose the ‘precious union’ or the ‘precious union’ is under threat.” But Denis adds that “the southern government and parties say this is crazy, this is not the right time” to call for a border poll.  He continues: “Of course it's the wrong time and it's crude, it's simplistic, and crude and wrong to have a border poll now. That's as crude as you can get. The difficulty is that if you take that off the table, I'm not convinced unionism would move at all. It will stay within its own narrow ground. It won't move out into engagement.  “I think that the border poll, or the possibility of a border poll, at least challenges unionism. And I think Peter Robinson was hinting at that. I think Peter Robinson was prepared to look at that and make his people ready for that.... Robinson seems to be this lone voice and we haven't heard much else coming forth.  I think it was Colum Eastwood who made a statement, which I thought had a lot of validity - he said it's very hard to have a conversation with people who don't want to talk to you.  Is there civic society within unionism which is prepared to talk?  Nationalism will talk.” Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES ‘Brexit means that Northern Ireland’s constitutional future has become an issue for Europe’, says Denis Bradley Denis Bradley was keen to move on in the latest Forward Together podcast interview to discuss the constitutional position of Northern Ireland.  “Well that's the one that intrigues me because I don't know the answer!,” he says.   “First of all I think something very important happened within the last couple of weeks and has not received attention. And that is that the Europeans have said if there a no deal situation we will still have to deal with the Northern Ireland situation.  That's a massive movement.” Denis insists that he does not believe that the re-imposition of a hard border is possible.  People in border areas – “the local farmer, the local shopkeeper, the local child” – have now become too used to being without borders.  “And anyway, all the border structures would be within green territory.  What I mean by green territory is from here [Derry] to Dundalk is basically - with a few exceptions, a few pockets - it's basically a nationalist homeland.  So to think that you could do that [impose a hard border] is thinking that you can put the cavalry of the old western films out into the fort somewhere.”  But, in the analogy, the Apaches won’t stand for it. He continues: “The Europeans are saying, if there's no deal.... we will not deal with the British government until we solve this problem. I think that brings us to a new place. To some degree it takes the sweat off Leo Varadkar.  But I also think it's an understanding that we're different.  That's what makes us different from Scotland.... I think the fascinating thing about Brexit is that it was an English construct. And it is going to leave England incredibly unsettled for a long period of time.  Whether that is for five years, or 10 years, or a generation, I do not know.” That, in turn, leads to a new conversation about the future of Northern Ireland, including the potential All Ireland Forum, favoured by Denis.  “What we need is for a conversation to start,” he says.  “What we need is engagement from all the different parts of this island.”  But, he warns: “I do see unionism’s propensity to go back in on itself and at this difficult moment not to engage. I can understand why this is. They come from a position that nationalism can lose 20 times or 40 times - unionism can only lose once... They will become incredibly defensive.” Denis wonders if unionism and loyalism is beginning a process of change. “My contact with loyalism over the last 20 years has been substantial and they have been very angry with the DUP, because they feel betrayed by the DUP and they feel that the DUP looks down their nose at them.  I think they are much less willing to be radicalised into creating havoc on the streets if we lose the ‘precious union’ or the ‘precious union’ is under threat.” But Denis adds that “the southern government and parties say this is crazy, this is not the right time” to call for a border poll.  He continues: “Of course it's the wrong time and it's crude, it's simplistic, and crude and wrong to have a border poll now. That's as crude as you can get. The difficulty is that if you take that off the table, I'm not convinced unionism would move at all. It will stay within its own narrow ground. It won't move out into engagement.  “I think that the border poll, or the possibility of a border poll, at least challenges unionism. And I think Peter Robinson was hinting at that. I think Peter Robinson was prepared to look at that and make his people ready for that.... Robinson seems to be this lone voice and we haven't heard much else coming forth.  I think it was Colum Eastwood who made a statement, which I thought had a lot of validity - he said it's very hard to have a conversation with people who don't want to talk to you.  Is there civic society within unionism which is prepared to talk?  Nationalism will talk.” Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 27 - Denis Bradley (Part 2)

FULL EPISODE NOTES Eames-Bradley process ‘should have done more to take the Irish government with it’ – says Denis Bradley The Eames-Bradley process should have engaged more closely with the Irish government and ensured it was on board with the recommendations, says co-chair Denis Bradley in the latest Forward Together podcast.  Eames-Bradley – properly called the Consultative Group on the Past – was published more than a decade ago and was intended to provide a way of dealing with the past and the needs and concerns of victims and survivors. Denis says “I do [think the] report itself is an extremely good report.  One of the worries when you do a report is that you think, was there a big pothole that we didn't see coming? That hasn't happened. The report has been incredibly good in that sense. The difficulty with the report is that there was only one government involved.  I think that was a major mistake and I blame myself to some degree for that.... Remember that was when the Celtic Tiger was beginning to explode. But even without the Celtic Tiger exploding, they [the Irish government] were so cynical around it they were very reluctant to engage. I pleaded with them to be engaged.” Denis says it was the lack of commitment to the report from the Irish government that damaged it rather than the controversial recommendation for each victim’s family to be given a payment of £12,000. He explains: “So when the report came to its fruition and when the British government were faced with the possibility that unionism was kicking at this thing and saying we're not going to have this because it looks as if there's going to be given money to the family of people who were terrorists and so forth..... We won't have moral equivalence, which was their big thing. Basically their government ran away..... When [only] one government is engaged, I think that you do not get the roundness.” Denis rejects the suggestion that it was the issue of payments that undermined the Eames-Bradley acceptance.  “That's not true. There were five things within the report that could have been quite explosive. And people saw the payment one because it was the most explosive.” Asked whether we should now return to Eames-Bradley, Denis stresses: “You have to deal with the past.”  Denis also addresses the structure of government in Northern Ireland, criticising the zero sum game approach of the major parties.  “In other words if they get 50%, we get 50%.... But the outflow of that is that we have ended up with institutions that don't function particularly well.” But that is not the only problem we have now.  Denis expands: “Remember there's many ways in which we stand on the shoulders of the Good Friday Agreement - but there's even a greater way in which we stand on the shoulders of Anglo-Irish relationships.  And Anglo-Irish relationships have gone off kilter.”  Denis believes the governments mistakenly took a back step to leave the politics of the north to mature. The challenge now is that Brexit has thrown society into uncertainty, as well as chaos.  “Our problem at the moment is we don't know where we're going,” he argues. “It isn't time yet to settle down and make large decisions.”  The latest podcast interview covers Denis’s reflections on civil society, creating a shared society and the past.  A further podcast will be released later this week in which Denis discusses the constitutional future of Northern Ireland.   The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES Eames-Bradley process ‘should have done more to take the Irish government with it’ – says Denis Bradley The Eames-Bradley process should have engaged more closely with the Irish government and ensured it was on board with the recommendations, says co-chair Denis Bradley in the latest Forward Together podcast.  Eames-Bradley – properly called the Consultative Group on the Past – was published more than a decade ago and was intended to provide a way of dealing with the past and the needs and concerns of victims and survivors. Denis says “I do [think the] report itself is an extremely good report.  One of the worries when you do a report is that you think, was there a big pothole that we didn't see coming? That hasn't happened. The report has been incredibly good in that sense. The difficulty with the report is that there was only one government involved.  I think that was a major mistake and I blame myself to some degree for that.... Remember that was when the Celtic Tiger was beginning to explode. But even without the Celtic Tiger exploding, they [the Irish government] were so cynical around it they were very reluctant to engage. I pleaded with them to be engaged.” Denis says it was the lack of commitment to the report from the Irish government that damaged it rather than the controversial recommendation for each victim’s family to be given a payment of £12,000. He explains: “So when the report came to its fruition and when the British government were faced with the possibility that unionism was kicking at this thing and saying we're not going to have this because it looks as if there's going to be given money to the family of people who were terrorists and so forth..... We won't have moral equivalence, which was their big thing. Basically their government ran away..... When [only] one government is engaged, I think that you do not get the roundness.” Denis rejects the suggestion that it was the issue of payments that undermined the Eames-Bradley acceptance.  “That's not true. There were five things within the report that could have been quite explosive. And people saw the payment one because it was the most explosive.” Asked whether we should now return to Eames-Bradley, Denis stresses: “You have to deal with the past.”  Denis also addresses the structure of government in Northern Ireland, criticising the zero sum game approach of the major parties.  “In other words if they get 50%, we get 50%.... But the outflow of that is that we have ended up with institutions that don't function particularly well.” But that is not the only problem we have now.  Denis expands: “Remember there's many ways in which we stand on the shoulders of the Good Friday Agreement - but there's even a greater way in which we stand on the shoulders of Anglo-Irish relationships.  And Anglo-Irish relationships have gone off kilter.”  Denis believes the governments mistakenly took a back step to leave the politics of the north to mature. The challenge now is that Brexit has thrown society into uncertainty, as well as chaos.  “Our problem at the moment is we don't know where we're going,” he argues. “It isn't time yet to settle down and make large decisions.”  The latest podcast interview covers Denis’s reflections on civil society, creating a shared society and the past.  A further podcast will be released later this week in which Denis discusses the constitutional future of Northern Ireland.   The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify. Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 26 - Denis Bradley (Part 1)